[OFFICIAL] Russell Westbrook as a Washington Wizard

"If the stats come to dominate your judgement, then you don't have any judgement at all"

They talk about the data improvement has become so dogmatic that to the point they have to validate every argument now with data otherwise they can't make sense of it. They are unable to comprehend before. ITs a fascinating documentary and the sports figures, data scientist, writers all take a deep dive on how stats are really helpful at the diagnostic, but there is so much that isn't there.

I think the hot hand theory is really great part of that, what do you feel about this? Have you played or talk to any shooter maybe in the history of the nba, HS, college and they'd disagree
https://www.sloansportsconference.com/research-papers/the-hot-hand-a-new-approach-to-an-old-fallacy

they really go down and study greatness and talk about the lack of ability to measure creativity and other elements, making something fluid, reflexive, impulsive, and creative something that is tangible and formulaic. The draft likewise player evaluation so on. It has come a far away as we measure it, more tech means more ability to measure it all. Even morey says any publicly available defensive metrics are just terrible right now. And as we learn on what to look for more, the hypothesis may evolve with more of that data as well.

There are just so many variables and we lose a part of the fluidity of the game. What would his production be if andre reoretson's defenders couldn't help off of him? Would deandre melton or the other guys you cited with higher volume keep their same efficiency, with higher defensive attention or the game plan on deandre melton would he be able to do the same things. There a human element and ability to adjust. I remember a writer talking about how at some point you are one player, yet from Nash, lebron becoming a good shooter post 30, even kelly olynk with close to 5 minutes showing so much more of his game in a different system with different responsibilities. just like me and you are acapable of realizations past 30, there is a human element that is overlooked.

? Chris paul was impressive, its an odd thing that he put the onus on why we were worse in 2019 as teh biggest factor losing Ariza, because he was our 'glue", how do you measure glue? How are players with a different volume, or a game plan going to transfer their advanced stats as well. It isn't a science yet, neither is the draft.

I' haven't quite seen this polarized since maybe A.I, and Kobe, both had some arguments against him, both were considered great by players and respected yet, media had trouble accepting much of this, and maybe some very valid conversations. I know those guys are missing a hell of a show on human defiant determination here as well. And not many players can go supernova like this dude has either. You make some really strong points I agree with frustrations on russ, but at the same time to be that replaceable when waht he brings to the game is even beyond his thunderous stats and have him painted as an optimal bench player and it just reduced to all of that doesn't make sense, it wouldn't make sense to have a guy like that on the bench. I think maybe a hof coach, team could harness it right. Melo with team usa was famously the best player or looked like it on the court when he all of a sudden could choose his moments and have space, his shooting some how miraculously became more efficient, so the nuances and variable on basketball are still yet to be able to be quantified and some can't seem to accept it unless its validated with the stats yet. mybe it will be maybe it won't, but theres a big hole missing in evaluating the game this way too, while the stats also have an incredibly strong part and nice addition to the diagnosis as well

 

I'm here pretty much saying theres more to Russ. But rockets made the right move. He'd have us close to the play in right now, he may have been exciting, but for our franchise, not to mention he wanted out, I'll take the tank commander(his contract is terrible, arguably someone might take on russ this summer, but wall is just so far gone) but we get a shot at the top 4. we got a nother heavily protected pick, but he wanted out.

 

Harden fans tend to dismiss guys like Westbrook and Curry because they "stole" the MVP awards from Harden. I never give a damn to the MVP award because it is just a narrative driven thing. If the award was really about the "most valuable player" in the league, then LeBron probably should have won about half of the times in his career.

Years ago, I used to defend Westbrook against his critics because I liked his fire and determination. Then during the triple-double years, I lost my respect for him because it was clear to me he was stat padding consciously or subconsciously. The most obvious part was how he gave up defending his man in order to chase defensive rebounds. That plus his shooting going from mediocre to bad and he did not seem to realize how dumb it was to keep doing hero ball shooting during crucial times makes me believe that his game is not conducive to winning. And I was one of the biggest critics of the Paul for Westbrook trade. It had to be one of the dumbest of all time, kind of making up for the dumbness of OKC in trading Harden to us.

Having said all that, Westbrook's athletic talent is undeniable. And as much as triple-double is so grossly overrated, the achievement cannot be just be dismissed. Very few players could do it even if they wanted to.

I still wouldn't trust him in the playoffs, even if he was 100% healthy.

 

Maybe some people are being unfair, and it's part of being a fan, so I get it.

I love James - even though I hated him for leaving - but I defended Curry in the other thread because I thought some of the criticism he gets is way over the top, and likewise I'm not trying to get back at Russ for winning the MVP. I'm giving my honest opinion based on watching him.

I do think that James should have won the MVP, but to be fair, what Russell did that season was also historic. I don't take away his triple doubles, it's just other parts of his game that I'm concerned about, obviously when judging him at the highest level, against the very top players.

 

Yep, I sort of agree with some of the points. I'm in awe of some of the ways he has willed his way to the wins this year. The wizards were beginning to brush the league lows with the twolves and us, and now they are in the cusp of an 8th seed. Its very, very difficult to do that, even mroe so with a team surroudnign westbrook and beal the way they have.

But I'm not exactly hopeful this will carry over in the playoffs. I'm intrigued and I'm going to watch. I never pay much attention to the wizards, but needed some life sice the rockets aren't sniffing the post season. He will be in the play in tournament with all hands on deck win or go home. That will be interesting yet historically has struggled with the playoff adjustments. Lets see this year if he pulls out one of his miracle games or reverts. His team is...terrible! when I watch tehm I'm at awe of how bad the supporting cast, outside of Beal who is incredible, is. Guys like beltrans who bring elite shooting are so embarassingly bad on defense he's almost lost em games.

Its a hell of a roller coaster ride watching Russ, he makes for a lot of excitement though with peaks and lows unlike anyone else. He is also a straight up Tenacious rebounder. He focuses on that, but often big men and many others also leave their assignments to do it, its just odd as a guard, but there is value in him getting the baord and gunning into the open court on oppose to a stop, clear out, pass out with probabilty of a steal, etc.

And this league is full of stat padders, including lebron(who I agree if the mvp wasn't some narrative, Harden, lebron would have more). But each night with the whole stat overlords we see guys won't shoot shots at the end of the quarters, lebron included. They really reailize the narrative is what it is now and so are very mindful of each thing. I've seen players from lebron kobe tenaciously go for the points, triple doubles even when the game is done. Its a fun part of the game with the monotous 82 game marathon they find little things each night to go for, and not many in the league have the talent to make that a reachable goal. Just like curry, the media darling, last night said he saw beals 50 so he had that in mind for his 49 to stay on the league leaders. these milestones are motivating for great players who can actually pull out things like that and us fans eat it all up, i think the narrative has gone too far. I remember Lowe went in on russ and deduced him as a stat padder who made Adaams av victim, adam more or less kept on the same rebound and rebound rate averages after russ with different players. ITs just not cut or dry but one thing with Russ, fans either love him or hate him. Media seems to disregard him, sort of like they did for harden when he was here, but players have his respect, as do legends. That says something to the guys who goto battle with them, should maybe find him antagonistic, have respect for these guys. You see that with Harden, Westbrook, Kobe, melo, A.i.

 

As a teams primary option, without a doubt yes. He’s had enough help to not get bounced in round one every year.

 

Russ has never won. He’s not a winning player. How often did you hear Dream get called a winner before he actually won?

 

If you're standard of winning is "Championship" then hey, that's you. You're calling a lot of all-time great players 'losers' then by default.

Dream was always a winning player, he played on winning teams. Westbrook always plays on winning teams, this isn't some odd coincidence when you consider his usage.

Fine, he hasn't won a championship yet...does that mean if he joins a stacked team and wins a championship he becomes a winner?

Is Gary Payton now a winner because he won a championship being a scrub on some Miami Heat team then? I guess he did more 'winning' on that team than when he played for the Sonics and led them to the Finals?

I really don't understand championship or bust reasoning, it's far too simple. Using it actually hurts Dream because he has two championships. When you look at how he won those championships and add context then you can see he added a tremendous amount to his teams than say Shaq did...but Shaq won more so I guess that made him more of a winner than Hakeem?

 

Dream was more of a defensive mastermind, total package.

It is way easier for 2 way players to succeed. I am sure Russ' D isn't as bad as advertised.

 

I guess you can deduce it to that. Hakeem is my all time favorite, one of the rare who won a ring as teh main and only star . But is history different if mario elie doesn't hit the kiss of death? If Kenny smith's pump fake and 3 doesn't hit? if Robert horry and Rookie Cassel don't come into the clutch as well as mad max flashes?

Titles are always won by a team, even though hakeem was the anchor on offense defense, just an undisputable MVP all around. But if those guys rim out on those shots, is hakeem not a winner?

F Stockton and Malone, but after consistently bringing their team to the playoffs, are they not winners bc they didn't win a chip?

It just simplifies and deduces the team aspect of the game which is paramount to winning. If PAxon's shot rims out, is jordan dfiffernt, likewise if kerr's shot hits the front of the rim, does that make MJ not a winner?

Russ has consistently brought teams, young, bad whatever to raise the floor to the playoffs. Oladipo had his best year after he left okc, he said russ was teh culture and the attitude and effort he brings just raised the bar for anyone enterting that gym each adn every day. thats somethign that doesn't make headlines, but consistently reported by PG, Beal and other teammates. So in my opinion he does bring a winning mentality and I get the flaw that he has a limit on that, but its no easy feat to do that in this level and if you paint that picture, then majority of the nba are losers. Skip bayless, STeven A would agree with you, but if you're pragmatic or realistic about understanding hoops, its not that simple

 

NBA's Players of the Week for Week 20.

Westbrook averaged 22.3 points, 18.3 assists and 17.3 rebounds as the Washington Wizards went 3-1.

Absolutely embarssing for the league to reward westbrook when he stole like 15 rebounds from Juggernauts Robin Lopez and former Lottery Pick Alex Len, let alone another 10 assists from John stockton clone, former Utah Star Raul Neto...They got lucky they still etched out these close wins despite his antics. Get him on the bench, give me D. melton for a stable 10-5-5 less mistakes.

No 1 in assists, no 5 in rebounds in the entire league. no 1 this year and in nba history in points created off of assist(harden 2017 is 3rd all time). Best rebounding numbers for a guard, ever. Also leads the league in Clutch rating this year. some 75/80 percent Winning when he hits his triple double.

He reminds of Tim Donaughy, just a fraud playing a video game, not real basketball. I still don't get why they don't bench his ass. He's holding Beltrans back and Ish Smith back from the wizards reaching their real potential.

 

I wanted to reply to this earlier but was scared I'd write a whole novel because I've been preaching this for years now.

Stats and analytics, super important...but I believe the human element is just as important when judging players. The most important stat though is your win-loss record. Nothing comes before that. If you're winning, you're doing something right, and stats might not understand that...and if you're losing, you're doing something wrong. This is how, before analytics, we knew certain players were impacting wins lesser than others despite them averaging 20+ PPG. This is something we always understood on a basic level to know you don't put guys on all-star teams if they are on bad teams.

Russ embodies that. He provides fear to opposing teams and by fear I mean the idea that he could take over a game and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Fear is a basic human emotion that is vital to strategies. So the idea that you can take any normal PG like say his back up, Neto, and still get the same results isn't true. No team fears that Neto is going to take over the game, so he gets less attention. Hey, challenge the shot, if he makes it, tip your hat. If Russ makes a shot...then another...there is definitely an "Uh oh" moment for the opposition.

Russ gets his assists on this fear. Clog the paint, clog the lane, because if you don't he's scoring...leaves shooters open...and if his shooters are shooting well...then you start fearing them and that opens the lane for him. No one is clogging the lane for every random PG.

 

He asked out

 

Had no idea damontis Sabonis also played with Russ in okc. Westbrook has played with more talent than anyone in the league outside of lebron

 

...outside of Lebron and KD.

 

I’m laughing at y’all calling a guy a winner when he can’t even get a team past round one. Westbrook is an overrated stat padder.

 

In the weak conference, playing with one of the best scorers in the NBA, the Wizards are a sub .500 team, and people are raving about it. Last season even a stud like Harden barely managed to drag his ass out of the first round.

I just don't understand how he has an entirely different judging criteria from other stars when there's so much evidence he just doesn't have an impact on meaningful wins. Hell healthy Steve Francis had about as much success as Westbrook has had without Durant and Harden.

 

I think the Hawks-Wizard game is the perfect example of RW value and flaws.

He definitely made a few mistakes during the game, but Washington has no business being in the game after being down so much in 4th quarter. That was mainly due to RW making plays and finding teammates for easy buckets to come back.

However, the situational clinching play -- down 1 with the ball and 2 seconds on the clock -- RW takes an off balance step back 3 point shot from the worst part of the 3-pt arch. That is bad shot esp in that situation, even he had been 50% from 3 during the game.

That is RW.

 

What criteria? People realized Westbrook was working back from injury at the beginning of the season, and the Wizards themselves were also quite decimated by injuries to rotation players during the 1st half of the year. Once Westbrook and the whole team got healthy, the Wizards record has been very good.

 

Ya, absurd how when Sabonis playedw ith westbrook for his rookie year at 20, Russ held him back to averaging 6-4 in 20 minutes on 39 percent shooting.