[OFFICIAL] Russell Westbrook as a Washington Wizard

Whose trying to spin it into a positive? I'm explaining WHY Russ shot the ball so much. No one is saying "Yeah man, Russ was a great shooter!"
I'm saying well they allowed him space to grow hoping he'd develop into a better shooter, he had that freedom because of how many other areas of the game he dominated in. You just get touchy when anyone praises Russ on anything. Proof? Where, in my first post, did I talk about Russ' shooting?

I talked about his career and you flew in here to denigrate it. I'm not even talking about Melo, not comparable, Russ had a much better career than Melo, not even a conversation there. And Carmelo was a better shooter than Russ could have ever hoped to be.

I literally said he can't shoot lol. I explained you why a player that can't shoot would be allowed to shoot the ball and you know I'm right which is why you're not even arguing that point.

AGAIN, you seem to be placing more emphasis on his Houston and Washington years than his prime OKC years. Stop this. That's cheap and lame. No one judges Vince Carter by his years playing for the Hawks. I'm talking about prime Russ playing for contending OKC Russ, you're talking about Houston Russ.

 

I put this in a separate post because I think, honestly, you've never been around hoopers and just analyze everything through numbers. Maybe I'm wrong, but this post, more than ANY other, highlights this. NO, your scoring ability is how a player can utilize his skills TO put the ball in the basket.

You realize, Durant idolized Melo, right? LIke that's who he wanted to play like? Why? To be a chucker? NO, Because they were both swingmen and Durant wondered how he can score like Melo, in the triple threat, having a long range shot, having handles at his size, etc etc. Melo, IN HIS PRIME, could score everywhere on the court.

I don't know if you know this but scouts aren't looking at % all the damn time, they are looking at skills. Can he dribble the ball, does he have a low post game, can he slash and drive and does he have the strength to finish, does he have the ABILITY to score. You're looking at numbers, but there's a lot that goes into WHY a basketball went through a hoop that you seem to be missing.

EDIT: Your takes on this are so odd to me. You're saying Carmelo did not have scoring ability? That in 2012, he should have taken LESS shots? Why are you so focused on downing these guys when they are clearly at the end of their careers? Focusing on their old years. If you tell someone "Carmelo was one of the best scorers in the NBA" My guess is everyone is imagining Denver-NYK Melo, not OKC-Houston-Portland Melo.

 

Yep there are so much context that determines the stats, what type of system you have, what offense and spacing you have around you. Where and how you can create from. Remember kobe was known to have every weapon in the book, that he was a three level scorer, athletic, in the post, 3 pointer, you name it and also an underrated passer but there were articles of how inefficient he was all the time. Some offenses need someone to attack, to bring in the defense and create for others. There’s just so many angles that change this thing around. Melo is another solid example. He has elite footwork, skills, a smooth shot that he can lift and play physical and get off on almost everyone. He needs the right leash and rope and areas to get the ball at but for someone who is working on their skill, there is so much you can take from these players.

As far as Russ, Beal is already taking a league leading ppg and shots. Now who else on that team should have the ball, beltrans? Wizards are just a terrible team.

Sometimes we place emphasis on what we can quantify because thats all that some people can translate. Basketball is reflexive and reactive, stats has a huge place to tell the story, but it does not ever tell the full story and thats why there seems to be a discrepancy between who the players respect as they goto battle with them nightly and who the media might only be able to relate to.

 

Couldn't have said it any better. The stats do have a place in the game but they don't tell the full story, the story of what the offense is, what's their goal, etc etc.

There's a lot that just goes into the 'why' of any stat that I think people forget or don't consider.

 

Russ has been on fire lately. Wizards 1 game back of the Bulls, they might make the play in tournament.

 

Yea he seems to hit his groove a few months into those season, now he is looking explosive again and his will to never play dead is great. As hornets keep falling with Hayward and ball out, they could sneak in and play pacers for the play in games and that would be incredible story line and props for them. They’ve beaten Brooklyn, Utah, came a shot away from Milwaukee. Impressive because most of their roster sucks or is too young, Beal has been injured but incredible when there and russ just won’t go down quietly.

 

This is more a testament on how terrible the east is... They only have 3 teams that are worth our time.

 

Yeah, I watched a game recently where his teammates blew 3 straight dimes. He’s definitely been putting in a lot of work with some really bad lineups at time. Once he got his legs back, I knew he would take off.

 

Scouting up and coming talent and judging careers aren’t in the same universe of topics my man. It’s totally justified for scouts to look at an 18 year old and look at his abilities and project that he will be able to use and improve those abilities to become efficient NBA players.

But we aren’t doing that. We are looking at guys nearing retirement who have put up more shots in the NBA than nearly anyone ever already. The career has happened. It’s nearly over. We are judging the results. Not the what could be.

But I guess you are right. You and I have both have all the basketball skills in the world. Hell by your standards EVERYONE on earth has all the basketball skills in the world.

Some will be terrible at their skills and some will be awesome at their skills. But we will ALL be considered immensely skilled players. Because it doesn’t matter how efficiently you can utilize your skills it only matters that you have them.

I personally have the skill to heave it from half court every time I come down the court. It’s an awesome skill. I only make it like 1-5% of the time but boy I tell you I am skilled as hell at chucking it from half court. Because as you say, it only matters that I’m able to chuck it from half court, it doesn’t matter that I don’t make it very often. Still have that skill. Right?

Durant can idolize Melo all he wants, but if he scored at the same rate as Melo then Durant would not be Durant. Durant is considered one of the best ever because he used his skills to put the ball in the hoop more efficiently than almost anyone ever. The opposite of Melo. Skills to do something and skills to do something effectively/efficiently are completely different things and is the main barometer of the LEVEL of your skill.

If YOU can come down and heave half court shots and make them 15% of the time compared to my 1-5% then you are by definition more skilled than I am at heaving from half court. We both have the exact same ability to throw it that far, but what matters more than anything is the damn ball going in. That’s the point of the game.

Melo can have all the moves in the world but if the PEAK end result of him using all his fancy skills is league average scoring than how skilled is he really? Skilled enough at being able to get the shot off? Sure. Skilled enough to make it at en elite or even above average level? No.

And my god you are the king of trying to make my arguments into things I NEVER said. Let me repeat it 5 times here so you remember.

Westbrook and Melo had specific great seasons.
Westbrook and Melo had specific great seasons.
Westbrook and Melo had specific great seasons.
Westbrook and Melo had specific great seasons.
Westbrook and Melo had specific GREAT seasons.

What they didn’t have EVER were efficient scoring seasons that would warrant them being at or near league leaders in shot attempts.

Literally both of their peak seasons were LEAGUE AVERAGE. Let me repeat that. Every single one of their specific BEST PRIME seasons they were ONLY league average in efficiency. I’m not cherry picking. I’m not focusing on their worst years. At their best they were average.

LEAGUE AVERAGE efficiency is not what any team should want from their highest volume scorer.

Being league average or below efficiency scorers for the entirety of their careers while also being some of the highest volume shooters ever IS their flaw as players.

 

No, that's what you're doing. I'm looking back at Russ' career and their best years saying he had an amazing career, and so did Melo.
.

And Durant could not be Durant if he did not have the skills or ability to even be a threat to score from the perimeter. I don't know if you know this but... Tate couldn't do what Melo does. I mean, it's actually impossible for him to do it. He can't attack from the triple threat and consistently score or take shots off the dribble. He can't. If he could, he'd be drafted and a lottery pick and on someone else's team.

Not everyone can do a dreamshake, the ability to do so makes it easier to score. This is skill and ability, this is what separates Embiid's scoring ability from Dwight.

If I could do that then the defense would defend me differently and we'd space our offense differently. This is the part you're not getting. Because Curry and Dame can shoot from anywhere on the court, it spaces their offenses DIFFERENTLY. It's an ability they have that allows their coaches to do things with them they can't do with other players. Why do these players take these shots after all? The risk doesn't meet the reward if you just look at math, not like there is a 4 pointer....answer is simple, anyone playing knows, it's telling the defender "You better come out next time. you better extend your defense."

BECAUSE Melo had the ability to score anywhere on the court, IT CHANGED how their offense operated. Read @DonatelloLimestone post below mines. The WHY matters. The HOW matters. Not that just the ball went through the hoop. Understand that an offense will be built around a guy like Melo taking the shots he does so criticizing him for taking too many is just...incorrect. Criticizing Westbrook for doing what his coaches and teammates tell him to do is just...wrong.

So Melo was league average in his prime? News to me.

What don't you get that I'm talking about these players in their prime? Do I need to say that 5x to you?

Again, you should really read @DonatelloLimestone post about why this might be. Karl thought Melo was the best offensive player he ever coached and wanted to ride that as much as he could.

 

Yet Russ has 3 of the highest PER seasons of all time? He has a top 20 season all time, even Harden can’t say that. Smh

 

Im glad you brought up Tate. Because you are right, he doesn’t have the skills to do many things efficiently. Can he shoot 3s? Yes, but so far not very efficiently so he isn’t anywhere near the league leaders in 3 point attempts. Smart.

Can he dribble the ball into the lane? Yes, but he can’t be asked to do it effectively with high volume. So he isn’t anywhere near the team or league leader in dribble drives. Smart.

Which is what I’m saying Melo and Westbrook didn’t do enough of. Stick to what you are good at and can do effectively regularly. Limit what you are terrible at. I’m not saying that in particular seasons they didn’t have good reason to lead their teams in shot attempts. I’m saying that these two particular players have no business being near the top of the league in shot attempts during any season of their career OR ending their careers with more shot attempts than almost anyone who has ever played in the NBA. Because they just weren’t very good shooters. Period.

Melo’s efficiency / league average efficiency every year of his career

Keep in mind elite level high volume scorers are going to be in most cases +5% or more better than league average and are rarely if ever found slumming it at or below league average.

.509 / .516 (-0.7)
.526 / .529 (-0.3)
.563 / .536 (+3.7)
.552 / .541 (+1.1)
.568 / .540 (+2.8)
.532 / .544 (-1.2)
.548 / .543 (-0.5)
.557 / .541 (+1.6)
.525 / .527 (-0.2)
.560 / .535 (+2.5)
.561 / .541 (+2.0)
.531 / .534 (-0.3)
.530 / .541 (-1.1)
.535 / .552 (-1.7)
.503 / .556 (-5.3)
.513 / .560 (-4.7)
.525 / .565 (-4.0)
.531 / .571 (-4.0)

Only 4 seasons where he managed to be +2.0% or better than league average and its scattered throughout his career.Years 3-5 and 10-11 being the only mildly consistent stretches of above average efficiency. Most of his career spent slightly below league average. Fine for a mid volume level shooter. Not for high volume.

 

I’m waiting for you response on why Harden’s hasn’t eclipse Westbrook 2016-2017 in terms of PER??? Need some answers!

 

I think we like mostly 90% agree.

I just don't think Westbrook or Melo are to be completely faulted for how they play the game, I think coaches(more than most other Basketball fans I think, most tell me coaches have little to no impact...) have a big impact on how players develop. Karl and Brook respectively let Melo and Russ do what they wanted and while it grew their confidence it wasn't tempered correctly and it made them do things inefficiently instead of focusing more on what they were good at. If you look at how Popovic for example tempered Parker he maximized his player's value.

I'm not trying to argue that Melo (Or Westbrook) were efficient shooters, they were not, as you've proven here and I sure as hell not going to argue that he's anywhere in Durant's class or Harden or Kobe or any other prime scoring guard/forward but I think they did shoot for reasons that their coaches thought beneficial for the team. Russ because they were trying hard to develop his shot and Melo because Karl wanted him to carry the offense.

 

I think you need to look at the list again

• Harden and WB are in a statistical tie for 20th and for 43rd. Those are WB’s two best
• But Harden’s 2nd best is 29th.

PER fluctuates each year to recalculate the average player. Even Hollinger talks of statistical ties.

so,

• Harden and WB are basically tied for their best, and Harden has two in the Top 30, and 3 in Top 50.
• Westbk has 1 in Top 40, 2 in Top 50 and 3 in Top 100
  
• Harden has 2 in Top 30, 3 in Top 50 and 4 in Top 100

So, aside from Harden having better PER yrs than WB, PER sucks as a stat.

 

Westbrook best person season is 30.65
Harden is 30.57 how is that a tie?

 

On BBRef? WB is 30.63.

PER isn’t a pure calculation like FG%. There is a variance between years that has nothing to do with an individual player’s boxscore stats he put up that year. If that variation between Harden 2019 season and WB’s 2017 season is greater than 0.05, then many would say that’s a statistical tie. I could elaborate ...

PER’s built-in yearly variance aside, you also said WB had 3 of the best yrs ever ... Harden’s 3 best rate better ... no?

further, one of the biggest flaws of PER is it rates defensive rebounds off FTs too high. That simple tweak drops WB below Harden. And it isnt some interent fans tweaking the stat, many highly regarded adv analysts gurus consider it highly flawed.​

here’s Nylon Calculus: ​

Here’s another statistic I can tweak: rebounds. Field goal and free throw rebounds are fundamentally different, so I’ve split those wherever appropriate and have two different league average rebounding rates on defense. It’s a pretty easy input when you have the data, and it makes a significant difference for players who pad their totals with easy free throw rebounds.​

 

Westbrook has been balling since the all star break. Idk who this gafford guy is or where he came from but hes having a big impact on them. Wiz a sleeper to end up stealing a playoff spot.

 

Kinda starting to wonder if the rapid unplanned disassembly still happens if Russ doesn't get COVID or injures his quad last year.

Bubble playoffs would have been way different if we got this Russ instead of the ghost of Russ that we copped instead.