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Official Opening Day Line Up

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by RocketFan007, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. SamCassell

    SamCassell Member

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    Thanks! When I was clerking a couple years back I would have loved to write an opinion like that, but politically there's no way my judge would have approved. I completely empathize with the quote. I might find a shorter Kent opinion though, this one's kinda long for a sig. Funny tho...
     
  2. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    The only reason Luke Scott is in there right now is because Berkman blew out his knee, and now we can consider this a way to see if Luke is ready for action. I'd rather we give a prospect a shot then waste 4-5 million on a decent player who is going to sit when Berkman comes back.

    They resigned Clemens because it will pay for itself. Every one of his starts will draw record crowds, just like it did last year. They also can use him as mid-season trade bait if they aren't doing well. This move pays for itself regardless of which way they go with it.

    Not counting Bagwell or Clemens our 2005 payroll is in the low 50's maybe high 40's (official 2005 payrolls aren't released yet). I consider that to be small market. Bagwell is getting paid 13-14 million too much, and Clemens is there as a seat filler... Most of the small market teams you listed have small payrolls because they are pushing for profits, not production... they could easily up their payroll 10-15 million and still make money.

    I didn't pull that out of my ass, it is. They have 5, yes 5 prospects that could EASILY be starting and contributing for half of the major league teams and that's just the ones we've seen this year. Hunsicker was one of highest regarded in his aquisitions for farm system players. Feel free to research it. Hell, all of them are on our team (Astascio will be on the 14th) and we are still considered a contender for the playoffs.
     
  3. Nick

    Nick Member

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    Spyvernaut... you could go to any mid-market (or even some big market) teams and say: "well, without x or y player, their payroll is only 40 or 50 million."

    And, in the end, your statment is not even true. Bagwell and Clemens are both deffering a ton of their money... neither is actually getting paid 14 or 18 million dollars this year. Thier payroll, however, is still at $82 million because of guys like Oswalt making $6 million, Berkman making $10.5 million, Biggio making $9 million, and Pettie, Bagwell and Clemens all making probably around $8 million each (including only their paycheck this year... not their deferred money.

    Your other points are valid... but do not say that we're going to a youth movement because we're a small-market team. Those other teams have low payrolls because they refuse to re-sign their great players once they're no longer arbitration-eligible. We've already re-signed Berkman, and we will re-sign Oswalt and Lidge once their arbitration years are up.
     
  4. SamCassell

    SamCassell Member

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    No, those small market teams don't have the revenue to "easily increase their paytoll 10-15 million" and be profitable. They just don't. The numbers are out there, the Royals aren't turning this huge profit they could be using on payroll. And how can you say "not counting our two highest players, we're small market". That's like saying "not counting Smoltz, Hampton, and Chipper, the Braves are small market". You can't just throw out the highest salaries and expect that the owner wouldn't replace those guys. You think Bagwell's salary has no effect on our other expenditures? Give Drayton credit, he's not going to slash payroll to 50 million again. He'll spend what it takes to compete, and he's shown a desire to sign free agents to fill holes in the past four or five years.
    Astacio's a nice prospect, Tavares is good but still raw, Burke will be a nice piece if we find a place for him. Scott was a throw in on the Robertson deal who might be OK for a month til Berkman gets back. No idea who your 5th guy is, Franco? (kidding, kidding)

    This team isn't picked to be in contention because of a surplus of rookies filling in. They're not picked by many to be in contention at all, but those who pick us do so because we have an awesome closer, and a very good 1-4 starting staff.
     
  5. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Max and other apologists -- part of why the Beltran negotiations were so disastrous was the way in which Boras was able to string Drayton out for so long. A good negotiator never would have put himself in Drayton's position at the end, where there was a time crunch. It never should have gotten to that point. So don't bring up the "well who was available AFTER the deadline" garbage when the whole reason they were up against the deadline in the first place was Drayton's pathetic negotiating techniques.

    And if you think an outfield of Lane, Scott and Taveras is an acceptable Plan B, then I guess you must also think that being a mediocre team is acceptable. Lane, Scott and Taveras is not a championship caliber outfield. Period.

    My beef the entire time has been how Drayton botched the Beltran negotiations. There was no Plan B and if there was one, Drayton's time management in the offseason pretty much canceled it out. Pathetic.
     
  6. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Bagwell and Clemen's are not deferring any of their money. Bagwell's contract was end loaded, and he's getting his deferred money for the previous seasons this year and next. The actual money is deferred but the cost listed in the salary isn't. Almost every big contract deffers money, the Mets are paying Beltran until like 2025.

    My point with Bagwell's and Clemens' salary is, if Clemens would have retired I doubt they would have made a huge play for a major starting pitcher and since Bagwell's contract was end loaded the two of them combined make for about 1/3 of their 2005 payroll... also, Biggio is only making 3 million this season. If Clemens would have retired they'd be in high 50's which is right there with Oakland. I don't see them pushing past 75 million in the next few years either.

    I consider that small market, because the lowest teams are just trying to squeeze profits out rather then put a team with a chance on the field... All of those teams could pull in fans and revenue if they made an effort, but they don't.
     
  7. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Berkman, Lane and Taveras is an acceptable outfield... it's not Drayton's fault that Berkman blew out his knee at a church function. They've tried getting other players to fill the holes (Mike Cameron for one) but they FINALLY refuse to give up the future of their franchise for it... and for that, I'm thankful. They know that their outfield will be productive once Berkman is back, and Scott is just one of many placeholders until then.

    Giving your rookies a shot while NOT getting into any overpaid long-term contracts is wise descision in my opinion. They could easily trade Taveras, Scott, Lamb and others for a great outfielder, but it doesn't make sense.
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    TJ --

    again...the problem with the deadline is that any withdrawal of the Astros in the Beltran hunt prior to it would result in as many fans, if not more, throwing out the same kind of allegations about McLane really not caring about winning that we're hearing now.

    i agree with you he got played. i agree. boras is a snake. no doubt about it. he's great at his job. he is extremely unconventional, because he doesn't allow a true bidding process. you NEVER know where you stand. and you have no idea what you're bidding against. McLane fell into it. but why?? McLane can't be a complete idiot as a businessman to amass the fortune he has...so what was it?? i'd argue it was the pressure from his ticketholders and fan base who said they'd give their left nut to have Beltran play CF for umpteen years to come. and i'd argue that you and others would be pointing fingers at McLane for other reasons if he had pulled out of those negotiations at any point before that deadline.
     
  9. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Max, had Drayton threatened Boras to take public the fact that he was dropping out of the negotiations, Boras would reacted. Beltran's ultimate value would have dropped, as the Mets would have known that their main competition had gone away. Drayton didn't have the sack to throw down that ultimatum. The point is, there are negotiating techniques such as that which could have been employed. They weren't. Now we have 3 triple-A caliber players patrolling the outfield at Minute Maid. Drayton should have forced the timeline, not Boras. Make Boras squirm, instead of the Astros. That clearly did not happen.

    and to your other point, this isn't the food distribution business we are talking about here.
     
  10. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    TJ --

    I hear ya. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened in that scenario. But this is the same Boras who gets teams to bid AGAINST THEMSELVES!!! He did it to the Rangers with A-Rod...he did it to the Tigers with an injured Ordonez, this very offseason. He was the one who kept throwing out the Yankees through the whole process, and had us all believing they were involved...including ESPN who was reporting that they Yanks were making last-minute calls on the deadline day to Boras...only to find out it was Boras making those calls to the Yanks, trying to drum up interest.

    No doubt we were played. That was sooo obvious with the fact that Beltran signed the very day after the deadline. Why not wait to see if the Cubs could unload Sosa? Why not see if you could drum up interest from the Yanks or perhaps the Orioles...or elsewhere?? No doubt we were played. And there's no doubt that had a bad effect on us...big time. But I think that's really easy to say after the fact...much harder to say beforehand when all the pressure in the world was on the Astros to just sign the guy, no matter what.
     
  11. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    This may be the worst Astros batting lineup I have ever personally seen at a game. I mean, we sucked in the early '90's, but we had up and comers like Biggio and Caminiti. I don't think Scott and Taveras are going to ever hit like those guys.

    I am not confident in anyone in this lineup getting a clutch hit, except MAYBE Biggio and Bagwell.
     
  12. SamCassell

    SamCassell Member

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    Still waiting for the name of that 5th rookie. Orlando Palmiero?
     
  13. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Why is our BEST rookie on the bench?
     
  14. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    When did Hidalgo learn to "hit again"? Was it his .232 August or his .114 (.155 OBP) September?
     
  15. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    You mean our best rookie that couldn't even get a bunt down today? He's still on the bench because Biggio is still extremely productive.
     
  16. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    I meant 4, I thought that was obvious. Type-o's never happen online, nope... not at all.
     
  17. Uprising

    Uprising Member

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    :D

    I love this BBS. It's like one big family. SPecially with the STROS.
     
  18. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Besides Beltran feel free to name ONE out game-changin outfielder that they could have landed in a long-term deal? Oh, that's right... there were none. Beltran was the cream of the crop this offseason, and I think our center fielder is doing just fine. If you want to get pissed at anyone, yell at Berkman for playing a pickup game.
     
  19. Uprising

    Uprising Member

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    You tell them svpernaut! I am now a fan or yours! Kick some ass cbass!
     
  20. Svpernaut

    Svpernaut Member

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    Just wanted to remind you doubters to not be hopping off the bandwagon in the first month next season! WOOHOO GO STROS!!!
     

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