Well...since you asked... Orlando Cabrera or Reneria would have been improvements at ss....JD Drew, Finley and Dye would have been nice additions to the OF...hell, Hidalgo would have been a welcome addition now that he learned how to hit again. Not to mention that Podsednik and Lee were both on the block. I wouldn't have minded sending a couple young bucks to Oak for either Mulder or Hudson...or even throwing some cahs at Odalis Perez, Matt Clement, Carl Pavano, Eric Milton, Esteban Loiaza, Russ Ortiz or Woody Williams. mean, if we were going with a youth movement, as much as i love Rocket, these younger guys would make more sense...no? Sort of a 3 for the price of one deal? There was plenty available this offseason
how many of those guys were available AFTER the Beltran deadline? I know Drew, Finley and Dye were gone by then. Pretty sure Retneria was as well. Cabrera went to play with his buddy, Vlad, turning down more money offered to him by St. Louis. not sure about the pitchers, but i'm fairly certain the A's castoffs had signed by then, too.
the whole point is that , regardless of the timing of their signings/trades, we never explored the possibility of going after any of them since we only had one thing planned
i know that's your point. my point is that cutting off the Beltran thing without seeing it through to the "deadline" would have been met with HUGE criticism from many of the same people who now say they wish the Astros would have cut that off and fished elsewhere.
Okay... u basically just listed every big name FA, or trade that happened this off-season. I could have done that. I wanted specifics!: 1.) There was no way they were going after a $10 million dollar a year SS. You must be crazy if you thought that was a priority on this club. 2.) Drew or Finley (who would have been good signings) signed w/ their teams while the Astros were still considered in the running for Beltran. Hell... at that time, it was considered Yankees, Cubs, then Astros (the Mets hadn't even entered the picture). Would you have been happy if they had dropped out, and eventually he ended up w/ a team that wasn't even considered a possible destination for him? I know I would not have been happy had they stopped their pursuit at the winter meetings... which is basically when the above two players agreed to their deals. 3.) I don't think Hidalgo is any better than Lane right now... yes, I'll put $$ on this. Podsednick did one thing good last year... steal bases. But, he had a HORRIBLE OBP, and the brewers had him hitting lead-off. You then mentioned every FA pitcher out there, and a bunch were mediocre. Frankly, I'd rather have one more chance to see a living legend pitch than watch 3 years of Eric Milton, Russ Ortiz, Esteban Loaiza, or Woody freaking Williams (younger guys?).
fair enough....but if we had explored those options, while not cutting off negotiations with carlos, we could have weighed the plusses and minuses...and also perhaps creaqted a little leverage for ourselves with Boars/Beltran
What leverage would we have had? He clearly was looking for other options as well, and going after another player would NOT have sped up the Beltran negotiations.
i don't think exploring J.D. Drew creates leverage with a guy who could write his ticket anywhere. they weren't going to make a decision a month before that deadline passed.
What leverage? Before the Mets entered the picture, we were considered as much of a destination as anywhere.....the Yanks were never interested...or at least not early on...many reports had him leaning towards Houston due to his wife liking it....etc etc etc. Had we made it known we were exploring other options, it may not have "sped up" negotiations, but it would have forced him to make a decision...or at least forced him to divulge the fact that he didn;t want to stay in Houston. The reason we never knew that is because we had no leverage and had no way of forcing him to show his cards. Our only leverage.....ONLY LEVERAGE...was that we had some young guys performing in the minors and were ready to play if need be. Boras and Beltran knew this...and said, if they want to rebuild, let em rebuild...otherwise they will break the bank paying us. He had us right where he wanted us IMO.
He had us right where he wanted us because he was irreplacable in the minds of Houston fans. Candlelight vigils...petitions...promotions of people giving up a paycheck to bring him here...a ridiculous playoff performance. He had us there. Not J.D. Drew...or Steve Finley...or anyone available this offseason was going to match that. Among position players, he was the star du jour...and particularly so in this town.
If I'm Boras, and the Astros say that they're going to start exploring other options, I'm just going to say... "you guys aren't out of it... I don't know why you guys are going to start exploring other options... we're pretty close." What if Scott Boras went to Richard Justice and said, "We were close to signing w/ them... I don't know why they're deciding to look elsewhere. Carlos is very hurt by all this... his heart is in Houston, and he wants to finish what he started there... winning a World Series." Seriously... put yourself back to December, and imagine reading these words. You would be fuming at Drayton and Tim... as would I. And if you're thinking about saying that "Scott wouldn't say that", remember the statement they released after they signed with the Mets... "the astros wouldn't give us a no-trade clause." Even Richard Justice (the ultimate controvery-stirrer) could see right thru that BS. All these situations are hypothetical anyways... so all we can judge is what they did. They went after Beltran 120%... and while it didn't work out in the end, I don't regret the fact that they at least tried.
It wasn't about who could bring the excitement or productions that Carlos could and did. It was about not having any leverage to negotiate with. I , as well as any baseball fan , know that Finley and Drew wouldn't have done what Carlos did...or could possibly do. However, they are better than what we had (especially with the questions surrounding Lance's knee at the time) and we could have used those guys to create leverage in our negotiations with Carlos..but we didn;t.
If that had happened, one of 2 things would have happened... 1) Carlos says he could care less what we did because he wasnt coming to play here anyway... OR 2) Carlos tells Boras to get a deal done both would have helped us move on
Honestly...I dont even want to discuss Carlos...it pisses me off to no end and I want to enjoy the game today a lot more than I did yesterday.
Or why not 3) Carlos and Scott convince the Astros that they are not out of the running... as long as they don't explore other opportunities. They seem honest, sincere, and they just want to make sure they're not going to rush into anything... but if they had to sign today, they would sign w/ Houston (but they're not going to sign today.) And in the end, that is EXACTLY what they did. They strung us along, and did it honestly enough to where Drayton and Tim had no choice but to believe them. In the end, only one side was actually negotiating with good faith. In your mind, the situation is black and white... when in reality, there were too many factors to take into account to just deal w/ it like any other FA negotiation would have gone.
Then move on! You obviously haven't if you're still clinging to these scenarios and ideas. Just believe that he never wanted to come here, and then you'll be more at ease! (that, or envision him barely cracking 70 wins this year w/ that awful bullpen. )
I would much rather we give our VERY promising prospects a shot then rent an aging or decent player for a few years. We could have signed a couple of decent out fielders but we'd still be in the same boat. The ONLY out fielder that would have made a dramatic difference that had ANY chance of signing with Houston was Beltran. JD Drew, Steve Finley, Woody Williams? You can't be serious... these guys are not the answers to our prayers. The vast majority of the names mentioned here are a joke if you want to involve trading of our excellent prospects and/or adding a crapload to the payroll. The Astros are nearing the end of an era and we're a small market team, they CANNOT continue to over pay for decent players to try and piece a winner together year to year... they have to bring up promising prospects and hope they can replace Biggio and Bagwell and there is no doubt a combination of our prospects will do just that. I am one of the VERY few fans that was HAPPY we didn't sign any other big names or big contracts during the off season (not including Beltran). I'm not watching the Astros just for this season and I don't want our budget to be tied up for years to come on underachieving players... I want a team that is going to be in contention every season and the only way we can do that in a post-Beltran era is to look to our farm system. Hunsicker left us with a slew of great prospects, our farm system is one of the most coveted in the league... and now it's time to use it.
Spyvernaut.... agree with everything except the fact that we are a small market team. We're not... small market teams can't afford extensions to Bagwell, Berkman and Oswalt, nor can they afford large FA contracts to Pettite and Clemens. We're a mid-market team... just like St. Louis is. We must base our success on the farm system first, and then trades and FA signings second. Small market teams = Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Oakland and Minnesota. The teams with good farm systems do well... but they don't ever get a chance to sign FA's or make big trades.
All of those guys are better than Luke Scott. Not every free agent is an "answer to prayers", some are just capable hitters who fill out a lineup. Then why re-sign Clemens? The message they're sending is not that they are rebuilding - they ARE trying to win this year. I think that IS the goal, until we can't "piece together" anymore, and they've been successful doing it. At least, that's the only reason to play Bags and Biggio and Clemens and Ausmus. If you're rebuilding, you trade those guys and go young. And quit with this "small market" nonsense, the Stros are a mid-market team. We're not Yankees or Red Sox, but then we're not the A's, or the Royals, or the Pirates either - the Astros have enough revenue to afford to spend at a moderate level. Dunno where you get this, but the Astros system is NOT regarded as "one of the most coveted in the league". You're just making things up. It's a system that is considered in the lower half of the league by most experts.
Sam -- great sig!!! i read that opinion about a year or so ago, i guess, and was just dying laughing.
