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[Official] Brewers @ Astros

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Sep 17, 2007.

  1. leroy

    leroy Member
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    Not really. He's lucky Mike Hampton wasn't on the field or he would have gotten the beating of a lifetime.

    Can someone tell my why this is funny? You know you're going to jail. You know that a beat down by a professional athlete (or athletes) is coming. What is the point?
     
  2. Fuzzy Zoeller

    Fuzzy Zoeller Member

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    This, and only this:

    [​IMG]


    Going to jail for a couple hours, paying a fine, and having a Class B misdemeanor on your record isn't that bad. And getting your ass whooped isn't much worse. If you're a drunk attention w****, it's a fair trade-off.

    Think about it: Less than 15% of this thread is talking about gameplay, but more than 50% is talking about this moron.
     
  3. JaWindex

    JaWindex Member

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    I'm guessing Everett won't come back this year? He would have made that play. :p
     
  4. DOMINATOR

    DOMINATOR Member

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    im sure if the cubs lose tonight they will have to complain about that and blame their lose on everett not playing. :D
     
  5. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Lidge is perfectly fine!

    Move along now, nothing to see here!
     
  6. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    ERA under 3, close to 2.5 after the first three weeks (when he ditched the cut fastball)... all while pitching with loose cartilage in his knee that will require surgery immediately after the season ends... what the hell do you expect?

    Give me a number. Seriously, it's absurd. Qualls doesn't get nearly this kind of treatment when he gives up a run or two. What number does Lidge need to hit to make you guys shut up? 0.00?
     
  7. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    How about a better ratio than 15 saves to 7 blown saves?
     
  8. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Take a look at these two games.

    May 30, 2007 -- Reds at Astros
    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore;_ylt=AsFqIv8uhyIC0i_sEZzsu7O4u7YF?gid=270529118
    The Astros lead 1-0 heading to the top of the sixth. But off Rick White and Trever Miller, the Reds load the bases with none out for the heart of a pretty potent lineup. Lidge comes in -- it's the kind of scenario where even allowing two runs is a good job. He strikes out Phillips, induces a sacrifice fly from Adam Dunn and then a weak popout to end the inning. He did a FABULOUS job that inning -- probably one of his best outings this season in a crucial spot. He kept the game tied. He didn't give up a single hit or baserunner. He didn't allow a run. Yet, because technically because he gave up a fly ball to center, "blown save."

    Also, August 22:
    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=270822201
    Wes Littleton pitches the final three innings in a 30-3 win -- the most runs a team has scored in 110 years -- and he picks up a "save."



    The save/blown save statistic is the most irrelevant statistic in all of sports. It carries absolutely zero value. Please tell me what Lidge did wrong in the scenario above that warrants you criticizing him for it... because when you mention the "blown saves," that's exactly what you're doing.
     
  9. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    When the reliever starts the 9th inning with a lead and blows the lead, he deserves the Blown Save. I strongly suspect that most if not all of Lidge's BSs came that way. Thus, BSs are very relevant stat for the team's closer.
     
  10. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    I just provided specific evidence to the contrary.

    The other thing, though... if a team's offense gives a closer a one-run cushion in the ninth and he gives up one run on one hit, he gets a blown save. If a team's offense gives a closer a three-run cushion and he gives up two runs on five hits, he gets a save. How fair is that? Which pitcher would you rather have? The save/blown save is an irrelevant, arbitrary definition. It's why you look to other numbers to view the big picture.
     
  11. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Wow, you chose two extreme cases and think that makes the S and BS stats completeley meaningless?

    You know you can probably do that with lots of stats. Hey- this batter hit the ball 500 feet...but it was foul. Another batter hit it 350 feet into the Crawford boxes...and it's a homerun. The homerun stat is meaningless!

    Most save opportunities are not at either extreme. Most are somewhere in the middle, and good closers put up a much better ratio than 15-7.

    But maybe you are right, maybe all of Lidge blown saves are extreme cases and he's just the unluckies reliever in the world.
     
  12. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    If good closers had to pitch in the middle innings like Lidge was forced to for a couple of months and brought in in tight spots (instead of starting the inning), they'd have a lot more blown saves. (And the home run analogy is pretty flawed, considering the entire point of a home run is to keep it fair.)

    On the whole, though, you're right. Most statistics are flawed, when you use them independently, as you are doing. You have to use them in combination to get the real picture. Also, 22 potential "saves" (not really, see above scenario) is a very, very small sample size. You usually have at least double that in a single season.

    It's funny... Qualls gets all the slack and praise in the world, yet Lidge -- a guy who's had a more successful season and is essentially throwing on one leg -- is the devil. Go figure.
     
  13. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Check the stats, in all of his blown saves he pitched only one inning. His problem is the 9th, not the other innings. It's a mental, not mechanical problem, IMO. He still has great stuff.

    It's a small sample size for this season, but going back to last year you have a bigger sample.

    I hate Qualls.
     
  14. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Let's actually analyze these blown saves, then. What was the problem with the pitch to Xavier Nady opening night? What was the problem with the pitch to Ryan Braun? Those are just a couple of examples off the top of my head. Both were perfectly executed pitches, off the plate. How could they have been thrown any better? Tell me. It's not mental. It's not mechanical. It's flukish luck in a small sample size. Stuff happens.



    Difference is, anyone with any kind of common baseball sense could see that his mechanics were clearly off last season. And it showed in his results. This season, he's come out with improved mechanics (well, the knee injury compromises his mechanics to a small extent) and his performance has greatly improved with that.
     
  15. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    How many extra inning games have the Astros played this year? It would not surprise me if it is a team record.

    Good to see the Stros actually win an extra inning game.
     
  16. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    Do you have youtube clips so I can watch the replays several times? But anyways, I doubt that Lidge is the unluckiest pitcher in the world. And that somehow batters are catching up to his pitches but not to other closer's pitches.


    And the question, is has he come ALL the way back, or is he just partly back? He is clearly better. But he has some ways to go.
     
  17. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Lidge came in this season and got beat like a red headed step child iirc.
     
  18. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=mil&ym=200708

    Sorry, can't find them on YouTube. But you can look at the Braun home run there on August 11... likewise, replace milwaukee.brewers with pittsburgh.pirates, go back to April and you can see the Nady shot.

    I'm not saying he's the most unlucky pitcher in the world, because on the whole, his performance is close to where it should be. It's just with the isolated save/blown save statistic, it can be flukish when the sample is about 20.



    I'll agree that he's not postseason 2004 form. But, when you isolate his statistics after April 20 (when he abandoned an experimental cut fastball) and take into consideration that since late June he's pitched on a knee that's going under the knife the second the season ends, the results have been what I consider to be good. Not quite vintage, but get the knee cleaned out and give him a full season's worth of save opportunities, and I'm confident in the results.
     
  19. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Again, read the full post above. He experimented with a cut fastball through April 20, a pitch he'd never thrown before in his life and one that completely through off his rhythm and pitch selection. Good mechanics won't save you if you're throwing a pitch you shouldn't pitch. Once he ditched that and went back to his regular fastball/slider combination, his results have been much more normal.
     
  20. SamCassell

    SamCassell Member

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    Lidge certainly has turned in a good season compared to last year. But he's not the guy he was in 04 or 05. He's no longer one of the most dominant relievers in the game. He has saved 15 games for a bad team with no playoff pressure. He's posted a 3.0 ERA in a season where he's split time between middle relief and closing. He's gotten his ERA and WHIP back to respectable levels, but has given up 9 HRs in only 63 innings (compare to Hoffman and Jenks with 2, K Rod with 3, etc.). There's definitely good and bad points to his season, but it beats where he was this time a year ago.
     

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