and your take is that people WEREN'T disappointed after they passed on vy?... that the vy topic DIDN'T cast an enormous shadow over this franchise for two entire seasons?... that NO ONE made declarations about their support of the texans and how long-term ruinuous it would be in the aftermath?... that the degree of rancor caused by the '06 draft has now (conveniently) been neatly tucked away and is having no lingering impact whatosever on any of their feelings?.... really? come on. hell, if vy were still healthy and the titans were undefeated (hard to imagine because - you know, he sucks and all), you're telling me there wouldn't be one vy thread after another in this forum?........ fine, pgabriel - then i'll ask you the same question nick asked MM: what is the genesis of the disappointment? it's been 7 years of losing, sure - but that's not too egregious, given houston's less than stellar sports past. i mean, the rockets haven't won a playoff game in how long? how many DECADES did we have to sit through before the astros ever made the playoffs? and how many decades afterwards to get back? the oilers were one of the worst-run franchises in nfl history for years and years... and people still pine for them. this regime and these players (85% of them) had 0.0 to do with the hole they dug themselves. meanwhile, record-wise - the bottom line everyone claims is the only thing that matters - they've made drastic improvements: 2 wins when they took over to 6 and then 8. have you EVER seen a regime held accountable for the previous regimes mistakes? let's hope to god it doesn't happen to obama - can you imagine? i understand a lot of us didn't grow up with the texans and don't have that special connection; i understand the texans have kind of become the scapegoat for A LOT of houston sports-related failures, including no football for five years. all ok by me - but if its skwering people's perspective; if it's preventing them from seeing the positives - why are they so... dismissive of someone pointing it out? as i've stated, it's like dealing with those fans who decided in 1991 that drayton mclane was, is and always will be cheap and doesn't care about winning. on that - they'll argue and protest. here, they join the herd and stick their heads in the sand - WHY? especially considering, bottom line-wise, they've gotten better the past two years - the first two years of a new regime.
Past losing doesn't make current losing acceptable. Just look through some of the Astros threads in '06 and '07 for a quick example. Heck, '03 and '04 (before 36-10), too. Ric, seriously, this is a strawman. No one is saying Kubiak should be accountable. No one. Not one person. But can we hold the Democratic Congress responsible for the most inept, unproductive session in the HISTORY of Congress? Nah, let's blame Dubya for everything wrong and evil in the world; it's more fun.
at the risk of wasting time when i have plenty of things to work on at work, here goes this long diatribe does not address the fact that the texans sucked long before anyone knew vince was going to be drafted, as a matter of fact they knew that they had the worst team in the league (record wise) long before the rose bowl game, not drafting vince may have been disappointing, but it is not the cause of fans frustration. the fact is they still haven't posted a better than five hundred season, and you yourself admit even last year's team would have been sub five hundred had it not been for some opponent lay downs at the end so ric I ask you, what is the vince withdrawl blocking fans from being happy about. but they aren't talking about vince young, they're talking about the texans, so what's your point, the texans suck regardless of who is quarterbacking the titans and their record. it doesn't matter so houstonians should expect losing because houston sports suck and therefore since they aren't expecting losing, it must be because of vince, i've found a more ridiculous argument folks again, if we want to address this silly point, how do the the attendance numbers look when the astros suck, how do they look when the rockets suck, so no, houston sports sucking in the past doesn't support your argument because even oiler games were blackout, thus proving the point that though houstonians should expect sucking, they will not support sucking, and they are not supporting it here. that's fine, but they haven't improved over last season, at least not through the first six games, and that's the standard people are holding them to no, i'm holding them accountable to they're standards last year people have supported this team from the beginning, they are disappointed, its not a conspiracy, its simple, if they look like they are improving people will be satified. save us the drama, you will always have fans who don't let go of certain things, but its not about letting go here, its about wanting a better product and now they look like they've taken steps back
True, though by "overall offense" you mean yds/game. When it comes to scoring (the true point of the offense), we are average. I'll agree that we're very capable moving the ball from 20 to 20. If we break through our red zone scoring wall, we'll have an extremely potent offense. I am impressed with our 27-30 point scoring in the last 4 weeks.
ric I don't know what's so hard for you to understand about this. the casual fan isn't posting on a web site breaking down opposing posts sentence by sentence about the texans. the casual fan doesn't know who the third string left tackle is. outside of the world of message boards and talk radio, the casual fan doesn't know who the texans could have drafted in the fourth round three season ago who is now doing well with some other team in the nfc. the casual fan watches them team week by week, and no that outside of beating a couple of very bad teams, they look no better than they did last season. its a pretty simple concept.
Why oh why have the Texans.... who are supposed to be "uninteresting, have no history, and failures"... inspired one of the most heated converstations currently on the board right now (even more so than D&D)? Lets take a look at how fan support normally goes for the established Houston teams: team plays poorly, fans don't come team plays well, fans attend team makes serious run at contention, fans sell out games. Houston is the epitome of a bandwagon town... and as much as everybody hates to be labeled as a bandwagon fan, a lot of people have already proved that here... subconsiously or not. The Astros have, however, done the best job of breaking away from this... largely because of MMP. They will still likely have near sellouts on weekend series during the summer, even if the team is in the cellar (which is a far cry from the dome). Now, lets take a look at how fan support has gone for the Texans: Year 1-2: fans support this team with undying passion/loyalty/excitement as if they'd been around for years... completely off-base with the normal Houstonian behavior. Why were fans cheering their guts out for a team that didn't even exist on paper 1 year prior, and who everybody knew had less talent than even the biggest laughing stocks in the league? Year 3-4: some fans start to get impatient, and people start to see mistakes that this seemingly "infallible" organization has made. Most fans still realize that its still a young team... and you have to be patient. Years 5-6: the wheels fall off the organization. Too many mistakes, nothing established, people lose their jobs. VY-Mario-Bush turns ugly for the entire city, as the Texans become a laughing stock worldwide, in large part due to LOCAL news coverage. The Texans have no more casual supporters, except the people that love NFL football enough to root for any team... as long as they're here and real. The diehard Texans fans are out there... and in many ways, the losing, VY/Mario, and all the hate has gotten them closer to the team than they every would have been had they already been average. Year 7: The Texans are now an established Houston team.... meaning, they have to win to get loyal fan support... otherwise, in the Houstonian fan eyes, "they suck", and won't be worth the time. By now, fans (whether they like it or not) are attached to this franchise regardless... some attached simply to root for them to fail because of pass mistakes, some because they've been along for the entire ride, and are going to reap some major happiness when it finally all comes together. Anyways... Texans beat the Bengals 31 - 13. Schaub should have another good game, but an INT that gets returned for a TD will be the major point of contention the following day. Also, I have a feeling Ahman Green is going to be a big presence... don't ask me why.
You mean, Houston is like every other town not named Chicago? Gotcha. Unless you can show me all those Yankee stadium sellouts from the mid-to-late 80s. Wrong again, Nick: they're actually here. That means they're still on the wagon. If they were "bandwagon", they wouldn't be around at all. They DO suck, Nick! Come on, man. Yes, they've made progress. They've gone from abomination/embarrassment to a team that still sucks but has a clearly bright future. You and Ric have harped on the things there are with this team to be excited about, and you're right. But don't expect us to pretend they don't currently suck. Because they do. And if making an honest assessment of one's favorite team, even if inaccurate, makes him a "bandwagonner" in your eyes, then you need to get some different corrective lenses. We're here, and we're not going anywhere. Even if we don't completely agree with you or others who see the team as in a better state than we might. Know why I'm a fan of the Texans? Because they play in Houston. That's all it takes for me. I don't expect that of anyone else; that's just me. Every week I sit on the edge of my seat and hope for a win. But an honest appraisal, at least to my uneducated head, says that they're still not a good football team. See you on the wagon.
At some point the novelty of the expansion franchise tag wears off. That's good and bad. Before it was fine just that we had a team....now people would like to see some wins. I do agree with you that people must care to argue this vehemently. I'm not thrilled with progress...but they're my team. I'm stuck with them. It's not as if I'm going to root for some other team. Call that bandwagon or call it whatever. I'm with you...I do think they'll win this week....and I think they'll like win by 2 TD's.
I'm obviously referring to the subset of people who won't be invested in this team like you are above, or aknowledge anything good about them (like progress, or looking competent), until they have a season where they post double digit wins... because after all, its been 7 years. True bandwagon fans don't still sit on the edge of their seats when they're watching a 2-4 team. You clearly aren't being black/white. I understand frustration... but I don't understand denial and refusing to look at context. Yes, they're not a good team... i've said that many times in this thread alone. But, they're now watchable... more than watchable... almost downright exciting. My memory isn't that poor yet to where I can recall what it was like to watch this offense sputter just as recent as 2006.... or to see people declare they will never attend/watch/buy anything related to the Texans because they drafted Mario williams. I guess my expectations/feelings had reached low enough (without actually morphing into a "I don't like this team anymore, I will never watch them" rant) that I am excited by this progress... even if they won't make the playoffs. I guess I'm just a blind homer who tries to find the good in every Houston team...
I definitely embrace a thesis/antithesis ethics system, but subjective things like enterainment or sports performance just doesn't fit. It *is* a gray area to me, fwiw. I don't think most of those who are voicing their frustration are denying the context or refusing to look at it at all. No one's blaming Kubiak. I've heard a few people flaming McNair, but it's hard for me to do that since he brought the NFL back here at all. People simply wish it could have been better. No more, no less. I don't have any problem with that in the least. In fact, had McNair hired other personnel in 2001, it almost certainly *would* have been better. Water under the bridge... I'm with you there (except you may be closer to 'downright excited' than I). This team *is* more pleasing to watch than any previous version of itself, including 2004. The primordial beginnings of any deep excitement on my part keep getting burned up by turnovers and halves taken off, however. I have to admit, the whole Rosenfumble thing set me back almost to 2005. It has seriously been 1993 since I was that royally pissed at a football game. My expectations were admittedly a tad higher for this year--I expected an 8-8 finish, but I expected 3-3 at this point; and while that may be only one game difference it's the way those games were lost that is so souring to me. Well, you know how I feel about that. Neither of us are "blind homers". "Blind homer" would be me as a teenager arguing vehemently that Tony Scott and his .230 BA was a great CF.
inherently, they are, msn. because they're choosing - and it IS a choice - to view this franchise in its entirety. so even though kubiak has turned over the roster very nearly completely from top to bottom, put together a competent, even exciting offense with loads of potential and doubled the overall talent on the roster (not to mention drastically improving its depth), we get scores and scores of posts about how everyone's sick of losing, same ol same ol, etc.... why is it so hard to separate out two clearly different eras? i mean, i understand it seeping into your feelings; but to let it coat your entire perspective so that nothing the team does resonates is... well, it's sad, really - because i think they're missing out and i think they'll appreciate where they're going much more when they get there. this, right now, is what i thought 2002-2005 was going to be like. it sucks that it took five years to get the process rolling but... now that it is, i'm fired up about it. this is fun.
No, they're not. Choosing to view the franchise in its entirety is *not* the same as blaming Kubiak for it. ...because they're still losing. Kudos to Kubiak for the measurable and undeniable progress. Losing still sucks. Why do you keep assuming intelligent people are unable or unwilling to do so? Everyone you're arguing with has acknowledged that the current regime is turning it around. Is that not enough? Do you wish to manipulate everyone's feelings as well? You seem to think that looking at the franchise as a whole is utterly invalid. It is not. Looking at the franchise's entire short history and then somehow subsequently labelling the current state or its current regime as a failure would be invalid, but (again) no one is doing that. Do you really understand? Because your posts seem largely intolerant. I'm almost there with you. Almost. My excitement was really tempered by Rosenfumble the other week, whether that's reasonable or not. At the end of the season, the most import numbers are the two separated by the dash. And, all of us are beyond ready to see that sucker get bigger than '8'. We're talking about feelings here, Ric. It's entirely subjective. There is a part of this that you can't hang on objective logic. Everyone in the room will have a different set of emotions about any given stimulus or situation. Logically and objectively, no one's really disagreed too much with your appraisal of the franchise's progress over the last two years and six games. But if you want everyone to respond subjectively in the same manner you do, or feel the same way about it, that's unrealistic. Feelings aren't logical, and they normally aren't correct. The crowd you're arguing with isn't even clamoring that they're right. They're stating a feeling. It will only change with additional different stimuli, and on a different schedule for each person. If one attempts to coach people's subjective responses, he's going to run into pure frustration every time (and get attacked an awful lot).
excellent point/post. i guess i DO expect the discourse to be heightened in this sort of environment. and that's what i meant in my response to emjohn: i DO dismiss the casual fan perspective; i'm not interested in it. it's routinely LCD - "monsters of the midday" listeners, richard justice readers... (i'm not suggesting emjohn is LCD, btw.) so i seek out posters or posts who have shown a tendency to rise above it and gravitate to those. (so emjohn: that's what i meant - i've just never read your stuff so it blew through my radar. i was sincere about not meaning to offend. plus, i can't spend 10 hours a day doing this; i have to quickly pick and choose my targets.) i WANT to engage in good, strong, intelligent back-and-forth, and i DO get frustrated when i see laziness on the part of fans. (which is not to suggest i'm good, strong or intelligent, though... i am.) and maybe there is a larger than i realized, "pick up the paper, did they win? no. damnit to hell, the texans suck" component here. fair point. but i stand by the vy position. that's when this became personal. every one expected them to lose for a few years in the beginning - hard to really be pissed that your expansion franchise was 7-9 in its 3rd season. when they selected mario williams, though, the tenor changed. and it wasn't just vy; there was the reggie bush component, too - but obviously, bush didn't have the same degree of investment. and its a pattern, man - drayton mclane's a prime example. when it gets personal... it stays personal. i'm still floored that people genuinely think drayton is cheap and doesn't care about winning. but its dogma for a lot of fans. i think the '06 draft changed things. and i think the vy aspect of it lingered. you'll never convince me otherwise. in fact, i have a hard time believing anyone could disagree.
Before you respond to this, please allow me the liberty of backing off of this statement. I re-read after I hit the submit button, and this statement is not correct. Plus, it sounds really combative, and that's not the intent. I should have said, "While I'm sure you understand, at times some of your statements towards this viewpoint seem intolerant."
gee.. i don't know, msn: maybe it's because some people (i'm coughing).... toss around words like, and i'm pulling this out of my ass, "suck".......... does it sound like that person accepts that "the current regime is turning it around"? can a team that "sucks" be viewed as a positive? yes, msn - i was the first person that i know of, years ago, to verbalize that our frustration actually dated back to january 1994. fair enough. we've discussed it before; it's a new era of communication. and i'm sensitive to a lot of it because it's unchecked and unfiltered and how its dissemeinated can be scary. opinion today becomes fact tomorrow. and, to a lesser degree - i think it's pretty obvious i'm in a smaller minority here. so its frustrating that the prevailing, "they suck, wahhhh!" faction overwhelms those more in line with my perspective. who's our champion? who's spreading our word? if more people infiltrated message boards, talk radio and local newsrooms with a different, less emotional, more heightened perspective.... is that a bad thing? is it really such a drag that i want those down in the dumps to shift perspective and see things from a different, more positive angle? is it wrong to want to raise the discourse above knee-jerk, emotional responses? i won't apologize for that.
I don't know Ric; I'll have to read some more of what that guy posts rather than cherry-picking one statement that makes my argument look better. Absolutely. This team sucks, but not nearly as bad as three years ago, and not as bad as two years ago. And the points you and Nick have made about the improvement in the offense (finally!) and on the roster as a whole have absolute objective merit. There *is* progress. This is a team that currently sucks but has a bright future. Then you will continue to be misunderstood. Honestly, a guy saying, "It's frustrating to still be talking about baby steps in year seven" is a far cry from irresponsible, uneducated speculation raging through the WWW as "fact" in a few short days. We see this very differently. This is my "water cooler". I don't want to be held to high journalistic standards here; I want to relax and goof off and have fun talking sports. And, that does not make anyone "irresponsible." Frankly, Ric, if anyone reads an Internet BBS and gives it the same credence as paid journalism the problem is with the idiot reader, not the anonymous folks posting and conversing solely for their entertainment.
and btw: yes, it is. he's being held accountable for 46 losses he had nothing to do with. he's being measured against a .281 winning percentage that someone else posted. he didn't draft charles hill, trade for phillip buchannon or sign (throw a dart). he didn't hire vic fangio. he didn't bring ladders to practice. he didn't keep the roof open during an early september game against the steelers. but all those components are most certainly part of this discourse. even though the team, record-wise, has gotten better in kubiak's first 2 years here, we still have "some" people bolding things like "they're still losing" not even midway through his third year.
