great...we disagree. this says it all and i'm not sure there's much of anything to debate. i'm not satisfied with losing seasons anymore. so prepare to see me complain when they lose. others might, too.
This is year only in the sense of evaluating Kubiak and Smith. As far as evaluating them, there has been steady progress since their arrival and the draft record, as you said, is "turned on its head." Kubiak has some clock-management and other issues to work through, and the defensive backfield doesn't appear well-coached in the least, but all-in-all there are more postivies than negatives for this regime.
You would? Are you secretly clinging on to that Kelly Holcombe jersey like there's no tommorow? The Browns are probably the one team who had more expectations than the Texans going into this year, yet are doing worse. The rest of the teams expected to do better are, and the ones expected to do worse most likely will. The Browns, however, are stuck in nowheresville... and that one year of a first round exit was more the anomaly (like Ric said) rather than a sign of things to come. But they did get to keep their history/uniforms... so the fan base can pretend that the expansion team, stupid front office decisions, wasted extra picks, and rebuilding hell never existed, and its just a down period in their 65+ year history of existence.
I doubt that Ric would be so cheerful and optimistic of the Texans if he owned season tix all these years, unless he is not truly a fan of of the Texans just is a corporate guy who treats his clients to a bs game. Although the Texans have a tough schedule this year, their lack of killer instinct is disappointing and quite frankly, embarrassing! It shouldn't have taken an expansion team this long to make the playoffs! Mismanaged from day one.
Exactly... mismanaged from day one. Took a year + to undo all the "mismanagement" from the previous regime. You can't just ignore all of that and say "7 years... should be playoffs by now." You have to look at it in context (It would be just like me saying how the Rockets should have beaten the Jazz last year because they were the #4 seed and had home court advantage... even though we know they were missing a key ingredient).
AZZCLOWN (MadMax) – You seem to be basing your whole argument on the conclusion that this season is basically a lost cause. Man, we’re 2-4, not 0-8 and 2 of those losses came against 2 teams that are a combined 11-1. There is a LOT of football left to play this season. Have you looked at the current AFC standings? Like I said in another post, besides the t*** and steelers, the rest of the field is WIDE OPEN. If things continue as they are now, an 8-8 record can get you a wildcard berth, maybe even a home game. Wouldn’t be the first time that’s happened. The way this team has played in the last 4 games (minus a few boneheaded plays) gives me hope that we can put together a hot streak and still make a run for a wildcard berth. If not, at least we can make it interesting.
Harsh! Is there an inside joke I'm missing? The way this team has played in the last 4 games, including the boneheaded plays and halves taken off, gives me hope that they can almost put together a hot streak. And, afterwards, we can look back and say, "man were just four fumbles away from a wild card!" and have all kinds of chicagocubbish hope for next year.
The way they've played this year is a far cry from the hope they've developed from their play the previous years, last year included. Going back to the David Carr-led 7-9.... that o-line had zero talent, they were running the dink and dunk to perfection (as other teams easily caught on), and they had an opportunistic, but aging fast, defense. Now, going to last year... the o-line gets more talent in Winston, but still has nothing of note on the left side. They barely have a running game. QB play is inconsistent, but better than its ever been. Andre Johnson looks good but gets injured. And oh, btw, they only win one game in their division... against a team that was resting everybody of note (last game of the season against Jacksonville). Both those years, the record looks better at the end... but the quality of play (and the quality of players themselves) are easily questionable. The way they're competing this year (if they keep it up) has me far more optimistic than simply what their record shows... emergences of Andre and Owen as elite members at their position, Slaton as a VERY dangerous weapon, two young bookend tackles with talent who are getting better, Mario on track to one day be DPOY for years to come, and a franchise that may finally now have enough depth to be able to both withstand minor injuries and simply now be able to fill-in the pieces (rather than simply take best available every year). And that's without taking into account the brutal schedule to start the year, and that tiny storm that displaced everything so early on as well.
Sure I can ignore all of it. I love how you guys are looking for rationality and getting all high and mighty with it. On one hand its, "consider the context"...on the other it's, "let's pretend the first 4 years never happened." This isn't science...it's entertainment. I'm disappointed in the product. If I had told you from day 1 that this franchise still wouldn't play a playoff game by year 7, i'm guessing you'd say something along the lines of, "that sucks." AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE, NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE WANT TO WISH IT ALL AWAY. I'm not saying they're without hope. I'm not saying that I'm not rooting for them. I'm not asking you to be disappointed along with me. I'm not convinced I'm smarter than the rest of you or know so much more about football that you must be wrong. I THINK they're a not so good football team...and I know I'm tired of them being a not so good football team. Honestly, what else about this is there to argue over?
sure, if you'd conveniently left out the part about the first regime being small bus-level competent. there's ALWAYS context; i don't, obviously, IGNORE the first 4 years - i'm simply choosing not to hold a nearly top-to-bottom new organization responsible for it. if we were seeing more of the same ol' same, maybe my frustration would be greater. but this is the best team they've ever had and their draft record has been pretty extraoridinary.
that's not what i'm asking. i'm asking you to identify all these " poor one day/rich the next" teams that are putting the texans to shame - THAT'S the straw man, because they don't exist. there are one-year anomalies but i can't IMAGINE you'd honestly prefer that - to the '06-'08 texans. of course we'd trade any of those forgettable first four seasons. again, this team is progressing; they're building an exceptionally strong, young nucelus - it's fun to watch and it's what we all thought we were going to get to see back in 2002. sucks its happening six years later but i'm not letting that rain on my parade, and better late than never. i can think of 2 recent examples: the browns and the jets: teams that were consistently horrible and then good overnight. it's off the top of my head - there may be more. oh! the bengals - there's another one. so tell me, MM - which of those three teams would you deal the texans for right now straight up?... go ahead - tell me how much one fluke season is worth to you? is it worth giving up andre johnson, mario williams, demeco ryans, owen daniels?..... kubiak for marvin lewis or romeo crennel get the football juices flowing? come on....... which ones? you always claim the astros are your favorite team: they made the playoffs twice in their first 34 years... i'm guessing in 1991, as the caminitis and bagwells and biggios were emerging, you were ready to dump those guys so you could be the... 1997 florida marlins of that era?...........
1. i'm honestly tired of this argument....off the top of my head, i think the bills this season from last would qualify. but whatever...i'm really not trying to win an argument. i'm just not happy with the product. 2. i'm not objective about the astros. 3. whatever...you win. seriously. i don't care. your arguments are missing the point entirely. i hoped for more for this franchise 7 years in. the end.
max, with all due respect - and it is respect or i wouldn't care about your opinion - but does ANY of this (from me, nick, et al) resonate with you at all? because my opinion - stated for the purposes of trying to understand one another - is that your posts, as i read them, sound like they're dipped and battered in bitterness... and i know how uhm... what's the word? uncommitted you were to david carr....... i ask because, frankly, your responses are universally so dismissive - usually out of hand and almost always accompanied by a "sprinkle some pixie dust on it"-type shot - that it's as if everything we're saying is meritless to you no matter the substance. which, if i'm being honest, i find it a little insulting. i'm not the foremost expert on football, but i do know and understand the sport. and i'm far from a texan cheerleader. while everyone was getting themselves into a lather in 2004, i was one of the few to say, "wait a second.... " i flipped out over the babin trade, the buchannon trade - and while i never had a problem with them taking mario, i did think bush was the better choice. and i know you won't believe me (though i've posted the article here before) but i was the first person (i know of) who started calling out the environment they were creating around carr - and that was early in the 2003 season when i compared him to david klinger. and, maybe i'm biased, but i don't think i've - and others, like nick - ever been dismissive of your opinion. we understand the frustration; hell, so far as i know - again - i was one of the first to start verbalizing it back on the old site, invoking the oilers, the five-year dead period, etc. so i definitely GET it; i know it exists... i've merely chosen not to hold this regime accountable for it. and really - that's not that ridiculous, is it? it was a FRESH start. so, sincerely: have you (generally speaking - not just max) ever read any "pro-texan" post and thought: "hmmmm... ok - that makes sense"? 'cause i kind of fell like all of us up against the fans who decided in 1991 (or whenever) that drayton mcclane was, is, and always will be cheap - "lalalai'mnotlistenintoyou!lalala". thanks. love, ric (hope that was read in the spirit it was written)
like this for instance... 'cause for someone who doesn't care... this is your 11th post in this four-page thread alone, and it's not your first time to comment on the texans. not every time but often when i, specifically, take time to refute and debate your responses - very rarely in a derogatory manner - this is the response i get: whatever. i don't care. you win. and then you start in with the same bitter posts a week later.... lather, rinse, repeat. so, which is it: do you REALLY not care? or............. is your mind made up about this team and lalalalanotlisteninglalala, etc? because i've NEVER seen a regime held acountable for something they had nothing to do with. EVER. it's... bizarre.
Playing along with the 3-yr train of thought: Yr 1: 6-10 make the best with Carr (dink & dink passing game) 6 losses by 2+ TD margin 1 win by 2+ TD margin Avg 17 ppg Avg 23 pts allowed per game Turnover ratio: -0.3 per game Division games: swept Jags, split with Colts, swept by Titans Draft grade: A (Williams, Ryans, Daniels...Spencer, Winston, Lundi, Anderson) Yr 2: 8-8 endure major injuries to Schaub, Green, Johnson, Robinson 3 losses by 2+ TD margin 4 wins by 2+ TD margin Avg 24 ppg Avg 24 pts allowed per game Turnover ratio: -0.8 per game Divisional: swept by Titans and Colts, split with Jags Draft Grade: C+ (Jones, Okoye, Diles, Bennett...Studdard, Harrison, Frye) Yr 3 to date: 2-4 2 losses by 2+ TD margin 0 wins by 2+ TD margin Avg 23 ppg Avg 30 pts allowed per game Turnover ratio: -1.5 per game Divisional: can only at best split with Titans, Colts, Jags Draft Grade: INC (too soon) IMHO: We saw significant, encouraging improvement last year. I don't think it's fair to discount 8-8 because of an easy schedule since it's ignoring the fact that we lost so many key players for big stretches of the year and had two new starting QBs that year. Right now, we're seeing a very real backslide despite having a relatively healthy team and mostly keeping the nucleus intact. 6 games in isn't going to perfectly predict 16 games, but it's a full third of the season and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. We're doing a terrible job protecting the ball and forcing turnovers, we're doing a terrible job playing hard all 4 quarters, and our defense has been alarmingly bad (haven't held a single opponent under 20 points, prone to giving up big plays, 2nd worst in the league in points allowed avg). Our two worst/uncompetitive losses have come against teams now 11-1....but our two wins were by a total of 8 points against teams now 2-10; both those wins saw us having to stave off furious comebacks. It's fine to say you can't simply judge progress by the win/loss column. I can agree to that. But where exactly is the progress in this team versus last year? Shouldn't we expect this team to be better than last somehow? If they are, I don't know how. Evan
I care about the team...I don't care to have the argument. Because it isn't an argument. I'm not happy with the franchise. If you are I think that's great. They are the very last pro sports franchise in town I would spend money on right now....and they do not get the benefit of having been the franchise I grew up with. Not that they care much, because they're making money all over the place without me at this point. I went to the game this last weekend...for free...and sat there thinking, "man, i'm glad i didn't pay for this." There's really no argument here. I'm amazed at how patient you are...how if the results are the same next year, you may be here singing the same song. That's awesome, and every franchise needs fans like that. I'm not one of them. Maybe someday I'll be drawn in.
If they win, you probably will. Just like all the people who are now Astros fans because of their run from 97-2005. Just like the people who are now Rockets fans because of their run from 93-99, or more recently because they now have Yao and T-mac. I don't really know what the big hangup is... at least I'm not saying everybody should stop complaining about the team, and how they're knocking on the door of the playoffs.... i'm just saying that compared to years past, I'm actually ENJOYING watching them. Of course, if I had a sheet in front of me detailing every bad move they've made for 7 years, their cumulative track record game-by-game for 7 years, and how many things they screwed up for 7 years... and I referred to this sheet every time a Texans game came on, I probably wouldn't want to watch either. Good thing I grew up, and I'm living in a "what have you done for me lately" type town, and I try and block those out. Also, I guess a part of me is still thankful that we have an NFL team at all... it makes sundays that much more interesting now.
