1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Official] Astros Offseason thread

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    Umm, the Astros are rated as having the worst minor league talent in the league. And yes, we have an upcoming draft. So does every other team. I fail to see how that changes the rankings, unless you're assuming the Astros are just smarter than everyone else. The actual smart teams realize that drafting is a bit of a gamble, and they give themselves an advantage by signing more players than everyone else. In the 1990's, that was the genius of the Astros - they built the Venezuelan Academy so they had more talent to work with, meaning you're more likely to hit on some. Minor leagues are a simple numbers game: the more players you have, the better your chances.
     
  2. msn

    msn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    11,726
    Likes Received:
    2,094
    Feliz and Blum are *not* exactly the same. And trying to to equate a player with x number of additional wins is ridiculous IMO. 3B got marginally better, the bench got a ton better. How many more wins does that equal? Who knows? The pitching still sucks.

    It's freaking December, man. Can we settle down and at least wait to see what the Astros' plan is before declaring the sky is falling?

    No way a couple $5m FA signings have completely derailed the investment the club is going to be making in minor league talent. I know it's hard to believe, but the front office is aware that we have minor leagues, too.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    Feliz and Blum are about as identical players as you can get, really. The bench didn't get a ton better - it added a below-average player to it, which is better than the probably really-below-average player it would have had, but it's not some kind of game-changing improvement.

    No one has claimed the sky is falling. People are saying that it's a dumb signing that doesn't help advance the club forward at all and may prevent it from making other moves. The fact that they overpaid for mediocrity early in the offseason is even worse, because the real deals come later in the offseason when people are still not signed. The two "OK" times to overpay for talent are early in the offseason for highly sought after high-end free agents or late in the offseason to fill holes when absolutely necessary.

    The front office was aware we had a minor leagues 5 years ago too. It doesn't mean they made smart decisions regarding it. $5MM doesn't appear from nowhere. That is money that, by definition, cannot be spent elsewhere. I have no idea if it will come from scouting or signing players or the major league roster or what, but it will come from somewhere. And it was money that didn't address a need, unless you think paying $5MM to strengthen your bench with a below-average player was a need for this team.

    I just offered one example of a better use of the money. Another example, if you want to just focus on the MLB club, would have been to spent $8-$9MM to get Rich Harden for 1-yr instead of both Lyon and Feliz ($10MM) or Feliz and Moehler ($8MM). Again, it would be a better use of money because you'd have improved a hole instead of filling a spot that didn't need filling.
     
  4. RocketMania1991

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    124
    .

    Rich Harden for almost 10 Million is a horrendous move. Guy can't even finish a whole season.
     
  5. desihooper

    desihooper Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2000
    Messages:
    5,753
    Likes Received:
    3,213
    • The Astros are telling teams Lance Berkman is unavailable. The Red Sox are one team to have inquired.

    John Heyman

    Wow, wonder if Lance would trade his no-trade to go to Boston, and what they'd offer. Not sure how Lance's honest to a fault shtick would fly in the North East. One thing we'd see for sure is the national media telling us what a great player he is - one of the greatest switch hitters of our era, etc.
     
  6. juicystream

    juicystream Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    30,607
    Likes Received:
    7,137
    He pitches about the same amount of innings as Moehler, but a heck of a lot more effective. If I could trade Moehler and Lyon for him, I would.
     
  7. juicystream

    juicystream Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    30,607
    Likes Received:
    7,137
    I'm not surprised. Lance is a great player, who is from Texas, went to Rice, and has spent his entire career with the Astros. I think Oswalt would be more likely to move, but only if he requested a trade.
     
  8. Vanilla Rice

    Vanilla Rice Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    15
    Moehler was already under contract when Lyon and Feliz were signed. Add Harden at $9MM means you have $12MM wrapped up on two starters that will not make each of their starts this season. Harden is injury prone and Moehler will have more 4 inning starts than 6 inning starts.

    Compounding the problem in your scenario is that since we have Harden and not Lyon, the back end of our bullpen is short a qualified major league arm. Not to mention the fact that the extra $4MM for Harden is probably sitting on the DL for a portion of the season.

    I also disagree with you that the bullpen doesn't need to be addressed...since we aren't going to overpay for a starting pitcher like Harden, the bullpen becomes more important than ever. I've said all along that we probably gave Lyon too much, but probably only $1MM per year too much. You can't address starting pitching for $1MM.
     
  9. RocketMania1991

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    124
    Wow Berkman in a Red Sox uniform.

    That would be awesome/sad at the same time.
     
  10. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,086
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    how would it be awesome?
     
  11. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    I agree - I wouldn't do it. But it's less bad than paying $5MM each to a pair of average/below average players.
     
  12. juicystream

    juicystream Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    30,607
    Likes Received:
    7,137
    Awesome that Berkman would have a chance to win a WS while still in his prime, plus that he would be appreciated more on a national level.

    Personally I'd hate it all around. Him winning elsewhere would just upset me that we didn't get the job done in 2004 and 2005.
     
  13. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,681
    Likes Received:
    16,205
    Agreed - but that's only because Moehler's option was picked up for no good reason.

    I'd be happy to sink-or-swim with Gervacio as the closer. Best case, you've discovered your cheap closer for the next 4-5 years. Worst case, he sucks and we lose 90 games instead of 85 and he gets replaced by Lindstrom. If you do that, you only have to fill the middle of your bullpen, which can be cheaply from the minors.

    If we were going into the year thinking the team will be good (not average, but actually good), then you can't take that chance because it could ruin your season. But the benefit of being mediocre for a year and knowing you're going to be mediocre is that you can take chances like that and see what players can do.
     
  14. RocketMania1991

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,996
    Likes Received:
    124
    Pretty much nailed why I think it would be awesome for him.

    I hate watching players careers get wasted. I feel the most for Oswalt. No doubt if he had been on a few other teams earlier in his years we would be talking about a cy young winner, and talked about as a potential hall of famer.
     
  15. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    because we might have a boatload of prospects in return?
     
  16. juicystream

    juicystream Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    30,607
    Likes Received:
    7,137
    That would be awesome, but alas. It would be like paying them back for Bags somewhat. I'd really like them to trade Wandy. He's in a similar position as Cliff Lee last year in that he will have great value for this season and next before hitting Free Agency.
     
  17. rockets934life

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2007
    Messages:
    15,312
    Likes Received:
    249
    Sox are willing to give up Elsbury, Bucholtz and high end prospect for A. Gonzalez...I wonder what they would have sent for Puma? Really don't want/need Elsbury but Bucholtz and two of their high end prospects might be worth it.
     
  18. MadMax

    MadMax Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 1999
    Messages:
    76,683
    Likes Received:
    25,924
    no it wouldn't...we got all of bag's best years and likely all of berkman's too.

    i'd do it for ellsbury and bucholtz in a heartbeat. make it happ'n cap'n.
     
  19. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,086
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    now that would be sweet.. if it would happen, i'd be in for it. Just can't imagine fetching for him what guys like Johan fetched in trades--and that's the type of package I'd hope for
     
  20. Vanilla Rice

    Vanilla Rice Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    15
    I like your points. Regarding Gervacio, I'd rather put him in a position to succeed, like a 6th or 7th inning guy to see what he's made of as opposed to 8th or 9th where his mistakes will be scrutinized heavily. I say this only because I like Gervacio and I think he has a fairly bright future. As with Lidge, he started as a 7th inning guy and performed well enough that it made Dotel expendable.
     

Share This Page