no way...our bullpen is too good. if we can get sampson, woody and wandy to at least get us into the 5th with the lead or at least within reach our bullpen will hold it most of the time. It'll be up to our revamped offense to do the rest.
OK, Biggio first ballet hall of famer the first guy to get in with an Astro cap on period no doubt about it. Bagwell, I can see him getting in but he does not deserve to be in the first few years. Above average fielder (not the best but very good until he could not throw) Great base runner, ok speed but great on the basepads Good ba/ops numbers, if he struggled at the plate he would find a way to get on. During his prime 300 hitter 30-40+ hr's 100 rbi's very very good numbers BUT I have watched/listened when they were blacked out to around 97-98% of Astro games since 91 and I don't see how ya'll can call this guy "clutch" I never saw where he was consistantly clutch. I remember back in the 91-94 seasons Bags getting some big hits but after the MVP season I think he came up short more times than you you would expect an elite player too. Hey I don't know why ya'll get so worked up when I make a statement that you don't agree with. I know plenty of folks who feel the same way as me and as far as stats go just remember David Carr is the most accurate passer in the NFL and how many games has he won? I hope Bags gets in for the city and for the Astros organization but he would not get my vote atleast not the first time around.
Then you were asleep. Don't take it personally; you're just wrong is all. Buck provided excellent numbers to demonstrate that. Additionally, there is no such thing as "clutch"; it all depends upon subjective memories of some of the most emotional people there are: sports fans. Yeah, but the facts state differently than your "feelings". There are stats that belie the truth about DC's sucktitude. Can you provide a stat that exposes Bagwell? No, you can only tell about personal impressions, "feelings", and "I can't remember when". Well, I *can*. Cool. Your vote would be wrong, but cool.
This is what I don't agree with (and you are not alone in this thinking). Except for the fact that some voters do not want a player to go in his first year, why shouldn't a player get in in the "first few years", especially considering (in Bagwell's case) that nobody who is initially eligible in 2011 is HOF worthy (at least no one I can think of). If he is worthy in 2014, why isn't he worthy in 2012?
Our bullpen is above average not great but above average we need everyone to step up their games at the plate because after Roy O we have 2 guys who should be pretty consistant and then 2 others who we have zero idea what were gonna get from them. The Astros could be good if they can make a move here or there and then get great production from guys like Scott, Ensberg Burke etc. etc. Still lots of ifs*
Well I think in his (and others) case a few years needs to pass because unless you are blind Bags and many others were on the juice and unless you have mind-blowing numbers ie. 500-600+ home runs 3,000 + hits 350 lifetime average stuff like that. Hell Bags was probally on the same stuff as Mac but Mac's homerun numbers are much more mind-blowing and he might not get in this time around. Look like it or not Bags, Cami, Gonzo and maybe more were on the juice. Sorry but "the good guys" also cheated.
Wouldn't the 5 year waiting period suffice to determine if Bagwell was juiced? Why should he be forced to wait an extra 3-4 years?
Well since the tests are a joke no I think it's gonna take more time to determine the fate of the power hitters of his generation. Wait till there is a real test in place to catch HGH and also the guy Bags was neck and neck with has laped him since he is still playing and that is Thomas. So you have Palmero and Mac who are guilty in the court of public opinion but have surpassed the magical numbers and then you have Thomas and Bags who folks are on the fence about but Bags has now been passed by the big hurt. Now if the voters say all these guys are in the same boat Bagwell is forth to get in IMHO
Considering that the totality of the player should be considered rather than simply offensive numbers, Bagwell is generally acknowledged as the best NL first baseman of his era and arguably the best NL first basmen ever. If folks just consider HRs then Bagwell is behind, but in overall play, Bagwell is at the top of the list of first basemen. Frank Thomas has played a total of 972 games TOTAL in the field over his career. Bagwell has played over 10,000 more innings at first base than Thomas has.
That is one of the major things many voters look at. "Was Player X ever considered the best at his position over a given period of time?" The answer for Bagwell is a definite yes. The numbers are there, especially when you consider the large chunk of his career was played in the cavernous Astrodome. He was one of the best baserunners I've ever seen. He was a very good defensive 1B, winning a gold glove. He was a MVP. Bagwell is in the HOF. What is up for debate is when. Many believe he is worthy of first ballot. Some don't. I think he is, especially considering that he doesn't appear to have much competition.
Love how disagreeing with your take makes someone "blind". Excellent logic. Prove it. ("Just look at the pictures! He's so small now! He hit more homeruns in his late 20s in the bigs than in the minors! He has acne! He used creatine! yadah, yadah, yadah") All this BS has been shot down numerous times. You are levying an accusation on which you have *no* grounds. Why in the hell do you enjoy trashing Bagwell so much? What did he do to you? Andro. I don't know about either's steroid use, but Mac's career is *much* more indicative of what would happen with steroid use. And, Bagwell is ten times the player Mac was (pardon the minor hyperbole). Mac didn't get in because he was a one-trick pony. Do steroids help you steal bases? Do steroids help you see the field and know what to do on defense or on the basepaths? Do steroids help your presence of mind or baseball intellect? If they did (which they don't), you'd have a more compelling accusation. Look, like it or not you have evidence for a grand total of one guy on your list. *Lots* of guys juiced, but you have to do more than point at a picture to prove it. For the guys who have been exposed, Bagwell has very little in common with them. Sorry, but you haven't convinced me about Bagwell. And, go ahead and call me "blind" if you like, but I can see the pictures the same as you. Perhaps you're "blind" to some of the other factors involved?
We will see what happens as a lifelong Astros fan it sucks that we have little history considering in baseball, history and stats mean so much so with that being said I hope he gets in I just would not vote him in on the first try. Don't get me wrong, I want as many Astros in as possible and I would like to see him go in at the same time Biggio does which will be 5 years after Biggio hangs in up. Think about how cool it is that we have all these great Rockets legends and imagine how much better it would be in baseball (a sport that thrives on it's history more than any other)
Frank Thomas, whose offensive numbers will eclipse Bagwell's only because unlike Bags the Big Hurt was able to recover from his Big Injury. But folks who argue that the two are connected re: the Hall of Fame I think are missing it greatly--Bagwell is head and shoulders better than the Big Hurt for the same reasons he's better than McGwire: defense and baserunning. Here are the five tools (iirc): --Hit for average --Hit for power --Throw the ball accurate and hard --Field the ball (get to it and then catch it) --Run the bases (fast and smart) Folks, Bagwell was a "five-tool" player. McGwire had *2* for most of his career, then *1* at the end. I don't know about the Big Hurt's baserunning abilities in earlier, less hefty days, but he's not there defensively. I don't know if Jeff is first ballot as one day Mr. Pujols will probably be, but if he doesn't get in the standards will have dramatically changed (chicks dig the long ball).
msn, I am glad your a big Astro fan but come on man if you have never lifted weights than talk to someone who has, then show him Jeff's pic's. I think he was great for the city and helped put this team on the map but because I say he does not to get in on the first go around does not make me a Bagwell hater
*sigh* Say it with me: there's more to it than pictures. If you think steroid use is only about muscle mass, then the lack of understanding here certainly is not on my part. That statement I agree with. I don't think he's in on the first ballot, either. But your unfounded accusations of steroid use and your ridiculous "he's not 'clutch'!!" nonsense make me ask that question.
Pardon my reaction to this but you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You really should not say things like that about a Houston icon. Next thing you know Biggio will have just been a career Astro and nothing else. That wasn't cool dude.
One of my favorite sports bar memories is a Braves fan complaining about Hernandez throwing unhittable pitches outside to Braves batters in 1997.
