Suppan is gone because there are rumors that he'll get at least a 3 year 30 million deal. I think most of the pitchers are waiting to see what Zito pulls down before they sign their deals (him being the consensous "best" pitcher on the market). Also, the fact that the Cards turned around Suppan 2 years ago, and Jeff Weaver last year is playing a big role in what they're doing... they're going to go after all pitchers with "marginal talent" and see if Dave Duncan can continue to work his magic. Hell, they might put Jorge Sosa back in their rotation.
Freaking out over starting rotation is long over due. Lee ain't gonna do squat for us if our number two pitcher is a player in his 40's not named roger.
Shhh... you're making too much sense. Let the people who were clamoring for a bat (and are still whining about Ausmus and Everett) continue to have their day in the sun. Some people are secretly happy that if Pettite and Clemens don't come back... it means that Ausmus won't have to be the primary catcher. People won't realize how easy we've had it the last two years until those two are gone.
i'm just secretly making a HUGE assumption that pettite is coming back. and that we have an 80% of 1/2 a season of clemens. that'll delude me into being happy with pitching for now
I sure hope your assumption is right. This Pettitte and Clemens thing is frustrating. After all of the goodwill they have garnered here and all of the support the Astro fans have given them, they should know whether or not they want to pitch here. lets not forget either that Clemens has been paid very well and Andy really only performed for one and half years of his three year deal. If they have no interest in pitching for the Astros, then they should let them know. I guess I just dont buy into both of them saying that they dont know if they want to pitch again.
I don't know of anyone who would want AP and Clemens gone if it would mean Ausmus was gone, too. Y'all defense and pitching only fans are as bad as the hitting only fans with the hyperboles.
Lets not get too dramatic with them... they don't really owe the Astros much, if anything at all Both of these guys were treated as GODS in NY... and they both were damn used to winning. The Astros didn't pay market value for Pettite, and they got one of his best years ever... and they got to the World Series. Clemens also put together three amazingly productive years... beyond what most thought he had left in him at 44 years old. The fact that the Astros had their two best years with them here is nothing short of remarkable, as well as it points to the effect that they had on the overall culture of this franchise. I don't think they're jerking the Astros around right now... Pettite is definitely unsure about next year, and even if they were sure... the market hasn't been set yet for the pitchers. If Zito gets $20 million a year, what does that make Pettite worth?
Uhh... its not like people are "pitching and defense" fans just for the hell of it, or to generate competition with fans who like the long ball. You HAVE to have pitching to WIN... end of story. You don't necessarily need a ton of hitting, and in the Astros case, they've gotten by with far less than what they'll have going into next year. But, if they don't have pitching, their season is basically OVER before it starts... that wouldn't be very fun. Oh, and check the Ausmus thread... people are licking their chops at the prospect of Pettite+Clemens leaving, since it means Ausmus will be rendered useless. Where are the "we must sign Pettite/Clemens" threads? Oh yea, people either take them for granted, or are not concerned.
Only in your own mind. I've read that thread, nobody is espousing the position you're referring to. You're fighting a strawman that doesn't exist. I think we all recognize that Pettite and/or Clemens have to come back for us to have a legitimate contender this season. A 2 man rotation isn't going to cut it.
Really? People don't freak out about the hitting every chance they get? People don't start threads on how to get rid of Ausmus, or how to replace Everett, or how Burke needs more playing time? People wouldn't have been jumping off bridges had the Lee deal fallen through, or Pupurra couldn't find a big bat? (even if it meant re-signing Pettite/Clemens). Just as recent as the end of the season, fans were ready to move on from the Pettite/Clemens experience... saying, we can do better with some kids in the rotation, and focusing all that money on a big bat. Where are the countless threads about how to improve the pitching? IMO, Astros fans take the starting pitching for granted after the last two years of not just good, but GREAT starting pitching. I'm not the only one who sees that. Also, if you're going to make a thread considering the possibility of losing Pettite and Clemens... my first reaction would be "who do we get to replace THEM," not who do we get to replace the catcher that catches them.
Again, you've distorted the opposing arguments to prop your own up. Very transparent. Just because people wanted to see improvement on what was one of the most anemic offenses in baseball doesn't mean that they want Clemens and Pettite gone. That's like saying that the anti-Carr Texans fans want to see the defense get worse. And getting Lee had nothing to do with Pettite/Clemens. The money will be there for those 2 if they want to return, I guarantee you that. If anything, adding a big bat like Lee (something that Clemens called for last season prior to re-signing) can only help encourage both to return.
I'm not making up the fact that people wanted the offense to improve... and if it meant at the expense of the pitching, so be it. Most fans were too warped by the anemic offense... I'm not saying you were, I'm talking about the people who were actually stating that they don't need another year of Pettite/Clemens. I'll stand by the stance that starting pitching is underappreciated, despite it being more important than offense.
Getting Lee will have no affect on Roger and Andy. But overpaying for him has far reaching effects. So, for argument's sake . . . andy and roger move on. Now we have young pitching that probably won't be able to handle the 3,4,5 spots in the rotation combined with a less agile outfiled. By dismissing the importance of Roger and Andy, we are now faced with a compounding problem of inexperienced pitching and an outfield that has some defense to be desired. With the rotation that is starting to shape up, we will need one of the best defensive outfields in the league (does that look like the outfield that you guys projecting?). This is not a commentary on Lee's defense, far from it . . . but he is not known as a stellar playmaker . . . and if my memory of Luke serves me right, he's no gold glover either. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Putting up 5 runs a game means nothing when we are giving up 9.
I agree that some people have expressed not wanting another year of Clemens... there's a backlash by some fans who don't appreciate him taking off half a season along with all the special privelages he receives. He brings a level of drama that rankles some, and people point to his record and say that we don't really need a .500 type pitcher. But getting another stick just enhances the case for Clemens to return, because we should lose alot fewer 1-0, 2-1 type games with a better offense. That's why he wanted another bat in the first place, he got tired of poor run support affecting his W-L record when he had the best ERA in the league. Pitching absolutely wins in the playoffs, but imo you can have alot more regular season success with a solid offense providing punch for a good pitching staff... If we'd turned a couple of 3-2 losses into 4-3 wins last season, I really think we could have been world series champs instead of the Cards. Add Lee and Woody, and keep Roger and Andy, and we've got a great shot next season.
i dont think that is the case...there was never a time where the Astros (as far as we knew) targeted Zito, Schmidt, etc...it was always a bat...and that was a huge need. However, I dont think anyone thought it was at the expense of pitching because we all are hoping that theres a chance that Andy and Roger come back now that we have added the bat.
Sorta begs the question... With Zito and Schmidt still available..and Roger and Andy likely to sign comparable contracts (even if its for 1-2 yrs) if they come back...why not go after a a guy like Schmidt in the meantime if you are looking at paying Andy 10-15 million a year anywayn if he comes back?
i'm with ya. i'd be trying to lock those guys down RIGHT NOW. i'd throw big offers to andy, roger, barry and jason...and see who responds first.
