1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Official] Astros @ Blue Jays

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Aug 12, 2016.

  1. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    Why do you think Jim Crane hates Dallas? He's from St. Louis. And *fans* pay attention to the media; the players do not.
     
  2. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    327
    Apparently, Nuk didn't get the memo.

    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cmon John, your better than that. Not called for. <a href="https://t.co/brSfyCyeVJ">https://t.co/brSfyCyeVJ</a></p>&mdash; Deandre Hopkins (@Nukdabomb) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nukdabomb/status/765636145015173120">August 16, 2016</a></blockquote>
    <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

    Also, I've never seen Keuchel react like this after striking someone out:

    http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2015/7...l-yells-at-delino-deshields-to-sit-down-after

    Could be he just hated Deshields? Or is this intense rivalry flaring up?
     
    #522 crose, Aug 16, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  3. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    22,834
    No, hate is a strong word. Do you not think Crane, Luhnow, or Hinch know about the DAL-HOU rivalry? Do you think the players haven't heard about the rivalry?

    Now, do I think players remotely care as much as fans? No. But to say the players don't feel anything a tad bit extra due to what they've heard is just silly. Another poster mentioned adrenaline. Something extra definitely exists.

    As for listening to media, there are stacks upon stacks of evidence of that. Do you really wanna go there?
     
  4. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    Eh. Maybe? It feels like a relic of the 1970s, honestly. I'm not sure, in this day and age of fewer boundaries and inter-connectedness that is really resonates anymore.

    I mean, was there anything remotely... adrenializing about the Tex-Hou rivalry when it was an interleague series? Of course not; no one cared. The Silver Boot was, is and always will be a joke.

    Fans care; players do not.

    Heard? Sure. Care? No.

    Sure. Players face media members every day; but they don't consume it and they certainly don't engage in it. The media does not exist to inform the players; they are a conduit for the players. You won't find stacks and stack of evidence suggesting the media influences players - because they do not.

    Again, you're applying your fanaticism to the players. I'm telling you, Jose Altuve doesn't give two flips about Dallas.
     
  5. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    327
    Here are some quotes about the inner-state rivalry and how the Astros move to the AL West has restored it. They even state that because it is more important for the fans it makes it more important and intense for the players.

    http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/tex...l-west-increased-state-rivalry-rangers-astros

     
  6. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    "They" don't state that at all; the writer does. The two Astro players quoted give very vague answers about the Houston-Dallas rivalry with Castro saying it makes it "a little bit bigger of a contest." Wow. Sounds intense!

    Now, Altuve does say there's "more intensity" - but because they're playing each other more, which is common with division opponents.

    Here's the money quote, and it's the same theme that runs throughout both Castro and Altuve's quotes: "I think the fans want to see that."

    Fans; the Astros reference them 8 times in a 450-word article. The Hou-Dal rivalry is totally fan-driven; the players couldn't care less.
     
  7. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    327
    You have players saying they care more because of the inter-state rivalry and the fans, but you stick with your baseless opinion that they don't actually care?

    Uh, okay, Dude. You win.
     
  8. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    You actually don't have players saying that; what you have - and let's break out the b-/b's here - are players saying is that it "builds it up into a little bit bigger of a contest." In your world, "a little bit bigger" means "more important and intense"? Really?...

    What they both ACTUALLY mention is that *playing them more* is the bigger factor. Otherwise, they struggle mightily to even vaguely infer that the Hou-Dal rivalry is any kind of factor. The *writer* does - he's furiously filling in the Grand Canyon-sized blanks caused by Castro and Altuve failing to provide any kind of confirmation of the Hou-Dal rivalry being any factor whatsoever. And when they do wander a few zip codes within the Hou-Dal rivalry idea, it is almost exclusively presented as being a fan thing. "The fans want to see this. The fans want to see the Texas team," Altuve said. "Rangers, Houston playing against each other. It's pretty cool." Yeah, it sure sounds like Jose Altuve is REALLY invested in the whole Dal-Hou rivalry....
     
  9. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    327
    Altuve used the word intensity, not me. Which I found interesting because, according to you, players don't care at all.

    The whole point of this argument(or so I think) is that some posters feel that playing the Rangers is different from playing all other teams because of the rivalry and this may contribute to the Astros failing to mentally rise to the occasion because of it. Whether it's because of the inner-state connection or playing each other more is not relevant. Players are saying it IS different, though. Do teams normally clear benches because a player takes too much time to get in the box?

    You are saying that the players *don't care* and that it is just another day at the office for them.

    There is plenty of evidence to suggest that it is not just another day at the office, but you are sticking with your opinion and that's fine, I guess.

    However, one could reason that this sticking to opinion in the face of tangible evidence suggesting otherwise, is exactly what has kept Bagwell from being in the HOF. The writers who *just know* that Bags juiced although there isn't even a mouse fart of evidence linking him to it. (I bring this up because I believe you run the amazing BAgs4HOF twitter account, great follow btw. Forgive me if I'm mistaken)
     
    #529 crose, Aug 17, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  10. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    Dude...
    Emphasis, obviously, is mine. It's not more intense because of a Hou-Dal rivalry; it's more intense because they're in the same division. Remove "Rangers" and insert "Angels" and his point remains.

    No; I'm saying players don't care about the *civic* rivalry between Houston and Dallas. Players ABSOLUTELY care about beating a division rival and, generally, winning as many games as possible.

    These are the two quotes that, at least from my perspective, are framing my participation:
    and...
    There are no quotes in that article that suggest the *players* care about the existing Houston-Dallas rivalry (if, again, it even still exists), and that is because players don't care about the existing Houston-Dallas rivalry beyond granting it passing fan-service.

    Reread the Astros' quotes: they're struggling mightily to draw any inference of give-a-**** about Houston-Dallas from a *civic* perspective.

    Thanks! And yes, I do - but... it's not the same thing. In fact, it's a little bit of an example of how blinders and drawn conclusions can obscure a search for truth...

    If there are scores of quotes of Astro players confirming that the Houston-Dallas rivalry really fires up their passion, I'll gladly concede. But... there aren't because, the vast majority don't care. They're not from here ("here" being state - but, almost as often: country).

    *Fans* care, and the players seems to know it. That IS something the article confirms. But the idea that it adds extra pressure... again, I see no evidence of it.
     
  11. crose

    crose Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    327
    IMO, those quotes say that since the fans are SO into the rivalry, it pumps the players up even more as well. I can see your point, though, so I'll not beat on this anymore.

    In the end, I just hope that our luck turns against them and, along with our continuous infusion of better young talent, it results in a decade long curb stomping, beginning next year.
     
  12. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    22,834
    Not sure what you're talking about. Players engage and consume the media all day long. Players watch ESPN and tweet media members, all day long.

    Regardless of the media's purpose, they definitely inform players. All an athlete has to do is power on a TV or radio and they will get informed.

    As for influence, Wilt was criticized for not passing enough, then he led the league in assists.

    Markets like NYC and BOS are notorious for adding pressure on players. This comes from both fans and media.

    "A little bit bigger" exactly means "more important and intense".

    You're the one trying to morph it into "MUCH more important and intense" and EQUALING fans' interest.

    Stop exaggerating to make your point
     
  13. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    [​IMG]




    What I meant was... the media reporting on/asking about the Houston-Dallas civic rivalry is NOT going to move the needle with any of the players. It'll make them aware of it; it won't force them to give a **** about it.

    So, you'd be content to be given "a little bit bigger" salary?...

    No; those two things do not mean the same thing, given the context.

    I'm not the one who brought it up....
     
  14. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    22,834
    Spoiler large pics much?

    Yeah, you made that inaccurate point earlier. It's still inaccurate.

    "A little bit bigger" is better than nothing.

    Doesn't matter... you are discussing it.
     
  15. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    Oh, cool... I'll anxiously await those quotes - or should I prepare myself for more unrelated, anecdotal stories of players that played a different sport 60 years ago?

    Hey, Jose Altuve - do you hate the city of Dallas as much as we do?!? "A little bit...." That's the fiery passion we were looking for! FU Dallas!! A little bit, we mean - FU, a little bit... Not much. Settle the Fing down, Dallas - we said, "a little bit."

    Not sure what I expected but never would have thought an adult would drop a "I know you are, but what am I" on me. I stand corrected. (doffs cap...)
     
  16. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    22,834
    Wilt isn't unrelated because you say so. You're just being stubborn.

    That's the problem when you exaggerate saying things like "don't care AT ALL", "doesn't give a s***", and "don't give TWO FLIPS".... it only takes "a little bit" to prove you wrong.

    Says the guy who just used "he started it, not me"
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,128
    Likes Received:
    4,742
    He has no relation to a discussion about the Astros' (lack of) investment in a Dallas-Houston rivalry...

    Most of us have the capacity to read "a little bit" exactly as it's intended: he doesn't give a **** to the point he can't even fake it. He picked the least amount of care he could muster.

    But, again - feel free to post the scores and scores of quotes from Astros players talking about how invested they are in this passionate Houston-Dallas civic rivalry....
     
  18. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    22,834
    You said fans and media have zero influence on athletes.... an incorrect statement.

    You also conveniently bypassed my statement of certain markets' added pressure upon athletes. I understand why you did.

    Least amount would be, "we just wanna win", or "they're just another team".

    Stop trying to rewrite history.
     
    #538 Houstunna, Aug 17, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  19. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    84,096
    Likes Received:
    82,127
    No one really does that, but I bet yall will spend the next 64 posts trying to.
     
  20. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    22,834
    :):):)
     
    #540 Houstunna, Aug 17, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016

Share This Page