1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Official] Astros at Rangers

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,086
    Likes Received:
    1,352
    I agree overall, but I will say that it's not entirely the way you say it. Desmond struggled for the first 4-6 weeks and was allowed to play through it. Tolleson was struggling for the first month and inexplicably held his job for way too long when everyone knew it should've already been Dyson. And Prince continued to play until Profar lucked into a call up based on the Odor suspension and forced them to keep him up with his insane play over the last 2 weeks. (Otherwise, it'd still be Gallo trying from the bench and splitting time with Prince at best.)

    I think they have been a little quicker/riskier than the Astros, but a lot more lucky, too
     
  2. leroy

    leroy Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    27,353
    Likes Received:
    11,213
    So much unintentional comedy in this post.

    Hinch screwed up badly last night. I was only keeping track on my phone and thought it was weird that Keuchel wen't back out for the 8th. Can't figure out what he was thinking there. Already at 100 pitches and facing someone with good success against Dallas = go to the pen.

    Even worse...he's making kangaroojero right for once. Now we'll never hear the end of "remember that time I was right about Hinch leaving Keuchel in? huh? Remember? REMEMBER?11?!!!""
     
  3. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,527
    Likes Received:
    5,528
    As you'll recall, I was dubious of the Astros' offseason, which, frankly, I found rather underwhelming.

    What bothered me most was how reactionary it seemed. We'll (probably) never know what their true intentions were with Rasmus - and I've always understood (and appreciated) them valuing the draft pick - but their commitment to him felt overly fueled by his finish, while the Giles trade (which I understood to a degree, too) similarly felt like an overreaction to September/October, at the expense of April-August.

    And then sitting on C, 1B, 3B and DH (while giving away a prime position to Rasmus) felt like the team didn't seem to understand its own limitations.

    I know making improvements is hard - but one of the things I'm (generally) disappointed about with this regime is that for all their analytical acumen, they don't seem to find a lot of off-the-radar help for the team, unearthing diamonds-in-the-rough who were undervalued by their current team. If you're going to be constrained by cost, that seems like a necessity - and while they've had some (Harris, obviously), there simply haven't been enough. And far too many misses (Carter, Gattis, Valbuena... Rasmus....)

    Also, while I remain excited about Correa's future, and continue to mentally scream "He's only 21!" to myself whenever that excitement fades a bit ... I'm starting to get a tad worried that his ceiling may very well be "good SS" - which is a perfectly acceptable - but far from the franchise-transforming talent we hoped he'd be, and thought he likely was after last year. And if I'm right, does that make this a little harder?
     
  4. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,527
    Likes Received:
    5,528
    That is truly unbelievable. I mean, like - I can't ever remember a team owning a Houston team like this. Maybe the Steelers back in the late 70s, although the Oilers would (usually) split the season series, at least. The Sonics in the mid 90s, maybe?

    It truly feels unprecedented. The only silver lining is that it's so extreme, the (likely) course correction is a stretch of Astro dominance. Right? RIGHT?! Hello??!
     
  5. Houstunna

    Houstunna Mr Graphix
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    38,501
    Likes Received:
    33,701
    Prime Dirk (Mavs) dominated us pretty badly.

    DAL generally dominates HOU.

    Astros can still win a game this series.
     
  6. The Beard

    The Beard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    11,379
    Likes Received:
    7,123
    I don't disagree with what you are saying here

    But weren't you one of the strongest ones arguing against spending on free agent pitching? Am I mis-remembering here or weren't you the one who said spending big on pitching never works out well
     
  7. cangrejero51

    cangrejero51 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2014
    Messages:
    4,920
    Likes Received:
    44
    I think our GM is better but their manager is better.

    They are better than us, is just that simple, but not the way it is right now. They are just dominating us.
     
  8. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,816
    Likes Received:
    17,203
    There's a middle ground between spending Price/Scherzer/Grienke money... and going after the Doug Fister's of the world. I felt they should have taken the money that was basically ear-marked for Hamels at the deadline last year (and for the next 5 years), and made a strong offer at *someone*.

    Of course I wasn't expecting Keuchel to regress this badly this fast... he was expected to be as sure of a thing and him being excellent is a requirement for any possible contending chance.
     
  9. cangrejero51

    cangrejero51 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2014
    Messages:
    4,920
    Likes Received:
    44
    I would have gone after 1 of those 3 for sure. There are not many number 1 pitchers in baseball, and those guys are going to command a lot of money.
     
  10. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,527
    Likes Received:
    5,528
    It's worse than that; I argued against starting pitching because I thought we would be more than OK in that area. Now, in my defense, NO ONE saw Keuchel falling off a ledge and I assumed (or disregarded, at least in relation to pursuing pitching) health concerns with McCullers.

    I'm generally not an advocate for paying big-time FA pitchers (I did love the idea of snagging Jose Fernandez in a trade); I would have been opposed to mega deals for Price, Grienke, etc., even if I wasn't wrong about our starting pitching.
     
  11. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,816
    Likes Received:
    17,203
    Well, this is a tad bit more negative than I was letting on.... especially the disappointment with Correa. Even in what is being universally panned as a "down" year, he's still shown enough promise/potential to keep the excitement about his future ceiling high enough (in my opinion). He's often compared to Manny Machado, who also suffered from some early lumps (and injury) before having what is thus-far a break-out season. As an unfinished product, Correa is still very very good... and I have no reason to believe he is close to being a finished product.

    I just think their overall patience/cost-cutting/waiting for super-2 deadline stuff should take a back-seat when it comes to trying to build a winner now.... Bregman and Reed may not be any more the answer than Valbuena/Marwin/White, but they are being treated as so. If you'r not going to go out and spend on viable/established position players, I'd rather have them get their necessary adjustments in now.... see what they're capable of once they get used to the big league level... and then you have a better idea of what your true needs are going forward.

    Ear-marking guys for the future (and not spending on account of that) is a dangerous dilemma when trying to build a contender now... then again, the mandate may very well be to keep costs at a minimal regardless, and then you have to take all the necessary steps to maximize club control and not get locked into higher/longer term contracts for established vets.

    I just feel that if the Astros didn't have the budget constraints... they would be a little more reactionary, like the Rangers, and very well could own this division now, given their young/talented core. I still also support the Giles trade... this bullpen is this team's best strength (and really doesn't need much more going forward), and the only really loss (VV) is far from a guarantee both in terms of health/longeivity along with production.
     
    #1151 Nick, Jun 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  12. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,527
    Likes Received:
    5,528
    That's a really good comp. Machado took nearly 2.5 years to fully reach his potential. And he worked through it on a competitive team, where expectations and pressure were heightened.

    I think that might be it... I think I'm putting too much on Correa to dig us out of that hole. Not only is that probably generally unrealistic, it's likely more so given his age, experience and development.

    "He's only 21!"
     
  13. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,527
    Likes Received:
    5,528
    I'm at a bit of a loss as to what the Rangers did this winter - they certainly didn't make a large, mostly reactionary transaction on the scale of Giles. I know they dealt for Hamels; but so, too, did the Astros.

    I think Arlington finishing below us in 2014 (and starting off so poorly last year) has recast the Rangers as equals but people need to remember they won 87, 90, 96, 93 and 91 games in the five seasons prior to '14 and then won 88 last year. They're light years ahead of/better than the Astros.
     
    #1153 Hey Now!, Jun 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  14. The Beard

    The Beard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    11,379
    Likes Received:
    7,123
    I agree with this fully. A free agent contract on any of those guys could be crippling as they reach the last few years of it, especially for an organization with an owner that doesn't have endless pockets. I think Crane will spend a lot more than what we have seen to this point, but without the mega TV deal that he thought we were going to have, he isn't going to be carrying a 220 Million payroll. So one of those mega deals could really cause problems when you start having to really pay Altuve, Correa, Springer, Keuchel, McCullers . . . . .

    Bottom line on this season, if Keuchel was pitching like an Ace, and Correa was playing like an All-Star....two things most of us pretty much expected to happen....we would be fine.

    Keuchel threw 35 games total last year and we went 25-10, a .714 winning %

    The Astros have gone 4-9 in his 13 starts this year. If we were winning .714% of his starts this year, we would be 33-27 which would be the second wild card spot. That truly is, the difference right now
     
  15. Froggychef

    Froggychef Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    2

    Also keep in mind that in 2014 over half thier team was hurt. When players starting coming back in 2015 they made a comeback. Neither astros nor rangers have won a world series so fighting who's better is pointless
     
  16. The Beard

    The Beard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    11,379
    Likes Received:
    7,123
    Yea the Rangers really didn't do a "lot" in the offseason. The Desmond signing certainly wasn't seen as ground breaking, what was it 8 million i think? Certainly turned out well, but not like they "outspent" everyone on him

    Biggest difference I see is they aren't worried about Super 2 when it comes to bringing up guys that can help. They weren't worried about what Mazara might be making in 2021, they thought he could help, brought him up and he is helping. If there was a spot they would be doing the same with Gallo, as they did last year.

    Hard to judge Luhnow on some of his offseason moves as well as promoting guys like Bregman and Musgrove, because we really don't know if he is holding them back for his own reasons, or if Crane has told him to so we completely avoid Super 2

    None of us know how Bregman and Musgrove would do in the big leagues right now, but i'd certainly take my chances with them over what we are getting at the corner infield spots and end of the rotation
     
  17. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,527
    Likes Received:
    5,528
    Last time I checked - and my memory may be fuzzy on this - but Bregman had logged nearly a third fewer PAs than, well, any other recent significant Astro prospect (I believe the general number was 1,200; he had ~400).

    I don't think he's being held for economic reasons; I think he's being held because they have a minimum standard in place that he has to pass before they'll think about promoting him. Otherwise, why keep him in AA - that doesn't have a financial impact.

    I think there's zero chance Bregman comes up this year, unless he goes to OKC and just destroys it.
     
  18. The Beard

    The Beard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2012
    Messages:
    11,379
    Likes Received:
    7,123
    I think we see him this year, only time will tell though

    Hard to compare how many plate appearances a guy like Bregman has to guys like Correa. Bregman spent 3 years in college, those guys can and in most cases should, move faster than the high school guys.

    Minor League plate appearances are one thing, but a guy like Correa was what, 20 when he got here, wasn't Altuve about that age too? Bregman is 22 and has plenty of at bats when you combine College and the Minors

    Now, IF you are right and there is no chance we see him this year. And especially if they have no plans to bring up Reed either..... THEN it is definitely on Luhnow/Crane that we did not go out and acquire a corner infielder in the offseason to help this year.
     
  19. Rockets FTW

    Rockets FTW Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4,676
    Likes Received:
    2,124
    ^ We need Bregman to push us over the top. Let the kid come up and provide another jolt to this team.

    This team is getting there, but we need more... like another ace to pair with Keuchel and McCullers.

    We just need to be at .500 and 3-5 games back of Rangers at the all-star break...
     
  20. Fyreball

    Fyreball Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    15,183
    Likes Received:
    12,881
    The mental lapses this team suffers from against the Rangers make watching this meltdown unbearable. For us to battle and fight like we have the last 2 games, and allow simple plays here and there to get in the way of 2 wins is difficult to stomach. I'm not sure what it would take for us to flip the script on them, but I don't think it's happening in the next 2 days. I just hope this doesn't undo any of the good mojo we had built heading into this series.
     

Share This Page