ODE to TROY: Franchise Poll

And what is Troy's source on this? I think we all know that when steve wants to be traded, he does not do a good job of hiding it.

 

Wow, this is funny. You'd rather be the Bulls than have 2 proven NBA stars.

Hilarious.

The best part is, those two scenarios will not happen.

 

Vocal leaders for whom? KT, Moochie, MoT, Kelvin Cato, EG, & Oscar Torres? Glen Rice, Kevin Willis or Walt Williams do "vocal leadership" just as well for that group and two of the three are cheaper.

How much of a vocal leader was Hakeem?

Let's see... Ainge = cocky / McHale & Parrish = not cocky.
I'll take the front court duo on this one.

Magic = cocky / Jabbar = not as cocky
Again, I'll take the big man.

All greats are cocky? Debatable. There is a very thin line between cocky and confident.

The corillary - all cocky players are great. I doubt it.

 

We were not much better than the Bulls last year and didn't they kick our ass in one game.

 

Land_sharks

I thought we were a lottery team

 

I'm writing in and voting for Choice D:

'Everybody needs to shut the F up, stop playing GM, and PLAY BALL!'

 

so are you saying Steve and Cat aren't dedicated?

 

Wow, was that a funny statement.

 

I don't like the choices.

Yes, one way of looking at it is big vs. tall.

But the other way is proven vs. unproven.

As a Rocket fan, I'm optimistic that Yao and Griff will develop into what we hope they will be. But we don't know.

We do know that Stevie is a Franchise caliber player and that Mobley is a 20ppg scorer in the NBA. Do you throw that away and start over for potential?

Edit: Finally -- a senior member even though I've been posting for over two years ...

 

Not all cocky players are great, but the greatest are all cocky. There is a line between confidence and being cocky, and the best guys have all crossed it. Parish and McHale couldn't win squat on their own, they needed Bird. Magic and Jabbar were better together than they were apart. Vocal leader for who? You just named the whole team and left out EG by the way. Willis, he is 40 years old, he will retire before we get passed the first round in the playoffs. Williams? So you want Williams over Francis and Mobley? Rice? Pfff, he is definately not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Every team that wins needs at least one of their 2 best players to be a leader. The Spurs might be the exception, but in a 50 game season, they don't stand as a significant example. And Robinson was also a leader and the 2nd best player on the team that year.

 

I would rather see support for Mobley, Griffin, Francis and Yao Ming playing together as a team !

 

Neither. I go with Steve and Ming. The tall and the short.

 

You have made this issue "black and white" to support a very weak argument.

Use the following link and tell me that every player on this list is as brashly outspoken as Francis and Mobely:

http://www.unc.edu/~lbrooks2/50.html

IMHO, at least half of that list is the Dr. J / Hakeem Olajuwon / Hondo Havlicek quiet warrior who leads by example type.

I may have missed EG, you have entirely missed the point.

Just because Francis and Mobely are vocal does not equate to them being leaders. As much as I dislike his game, Glen Rice has a ring and he has been an All Star...two things absent on Cuttinos resume. Quiet players like EG or KT have just as much respect for this as they do someone with a 20 ppg average.

You have accepted the Fools Gold of equating ppg or a current skill level with leadership. A large part of leadership is vision...Cat and Steve are lacking in this area. (You do watch their interviews, right?).

If a coach or teammate talks too much, it isn't long before they are tuned out.

This is such an open ended comment, I'm not sure if it's even worth discussing.

If a team doesn't win, then it's because neither of their two best players is a leader? Memphis doesn't win because neither Battier or Gasol is a leader? Zo and Eddie Jones weren't leaders this year? Sprewell and Houston or Jordan and Rip Hamilton aren't leading well enough either?

When a team wins, someone grows into the roll of "leader". Teams don't win just because they have leaders. If Francis is truly unhappy, whomever replaces him will have a team with enough talent to win and they thus will have the potential to lead.

 

It's interesting you all rather build a team around two players who haven't done much or anything in the NBA, rather than 2 players who have already proven to be one of the best backcourts while still being young and full of potential

 

Look at the players who have won more than 2 championships. MJ, Magic, Bird, and Wilt. All cocky guys when it came to basketball. The only exception is Russel, and he has more rings than any of those guys, but do you really think Ming and Griffin are on Russel's level? When I say cocky, I mean Cocky on the court. Tell me just how often are Steve and Cuttino brashly outspoken. Show me when Cat has claimed to be better than everybody. Show me anything where Steve is shooting his mouth off in a way that is brash and outspoken. I was defending these 2 for being cocky when they play by saying being cocky isn't a bad thing, that some of the greatest were all cocky. Your trying to turn my argument into being "you can't be great unless your cocky." There are a lot of guys on that list that don't seem cocky, but the guys with the most rings are were cocky. When it comes to leadership, who do the guys on this team listen to, Steve and Cat. I remember Rice saying that he felt Steve and Cat were good leaders, so if you respect him and his allstar berth and the Ring that Shaq and Kobe gave him, then you'll respect his opinion on Steve and Cat. You pointed out all the teams that sucked with their best players being leaders, but you didn't mention all the teams that have won championships with their best players being leaders, so who is making a stupid argument? Maybe we both are. Either way, pay attention to my aldridge thread, Steve and Cat are on board with Ming and this has become a moot point.

 

Only if you think Cuttino and Steve are on par with MJ, Magic, & Bird.

 

Now it's 90-19, w/ Eddie and Ming winning....