maybe i did a poor job of stearing the convo. i meant this thread to be less of "is rafer good or not" and more of "is a "true PG really what we need?" my feeling is that we would get more out of our starting line-up (who is already the best +/- 5 man team in the league) if we agree that tmac is the playmaker and put around him a slasher, defender, shooter. whan yao is out and tmac must play off the ball to score, rafer could shine. the same for when tmac is out and he can run the offence into yao. i feel he is better suited for the bench because of that. i'd like to see someone who can get the other team in the penalty early by driving into the big guys like teams do to yao, and i'd like to see someone who can stop teams from doing that to yao. that is a bigger need in the starting lineup than a second playmaker. that's what i wanted this thread to be about. adding a slasher/ perimeter defender, and realizing that rafer's game is better suited for the bench now that tmac controls the ball.
I think it'd be nice to have another guard and keep Rafer here with solid minutes..but it's hard to find a guy. I think we'll be OK with Snyder, Bonzi, and Head in the backcourt. I really hope that Spanoulis can eventually be our point..and a good one. I don't think Alston's defense is that bad, but I may be wrong. He is a good ballhandler though, and he does help Tmac and Yao out. He's a good teammate
I guess from your perspective Clutch should just shut down this site where some people have actual conversations about the team, players and coaches because you obviously have it all figured out. Please post your home email so I can write you for permission to post and provide you with a list of my points that you can either approve or disapprove before I post them. Then we won't have to waste so much time on the board with your great intellect whittling all of my arguments down into poo-poo before the masses. obfuscation: the activity of obscuring people's understanding, leaving them baffled or bewildered I think that if anyone if obfuscating it is you man. Attempting in a pretty silly way to put words in my mouth that never came out and explain what it is I "really" mean. Your conclusion at the end by the way, is 100% wrong. A little condescending on your part, to use another large word. I am discussing. You are attacking and in a pretty mean way. It is one thing to disagree on points but you are just wound up a bit too tight on this one. Relax man. If you disagree, OK but it's not the end of the world. This is just a basketball forum, not life and death. And of course now I am lumped in with every single poster who has criticized Rafer since he got here, and I am a whiner. Should I tell you I am tired of ROF's and send this whole thread off in that direction? Nice man. Real nice. This feels like a political race and I feel like I just got a bucket of **** dumped on me.
LOL! Welcome to JoepeardE's world. If you dont agree with him, you must obviously be wrong and should not bother wasting your time posting on this board.! You criticize players, he will criticize you. It has well been documented than Rafer is a liability in crunch time. Someone should break down his stats based on point differential. It should be revealing. BTW, there is a whole thread based on futility of Rafer when pressure gets turn on, on a different Rockets message board. Quiet a few people know what some had been talking about last year. We need a more heady, calm, and reassuring presence at PG. Does not have to be spectacular, does nothave to be flashy. Just steady and consistent. The fact that Rockets tried so hard to get another PG this offseason speaks VOLUME. It is not suprising that Rockets have lost big leads when Tmac is sitting out and Rafer has been handling the decision making responsibilities.
I think those things you guys want from the starting PG is what we need from a backup PG. What we need from our starting PG is 2 of these 3: 1) A good passer 2) A good shooter 3) A good defender Off the bench, we need a guy who can do the one thing Rafer doesn't do really well (Defend) and drive to the basket. Make no mistake about it, shooting from our PG spot is the most important quality, followed closely by defense. What we DO have on the floor is a defensive team with Alston: Yao, Hayes, Battier, T-Mac. What we do lack from those players with Alston is SHOOTING as Battier is the best and only shooter of the bunch. So if there was a player who could drive and defend, he would STILL come off the bench for Alston, because IMO it would be ridiculously stupid to put another guy in Rafer's place who can't shoot from 3-pt range. After all, this team is built around a post presence, and a star swingman. Their offensive production relies heavily on players being able to hit wide-open shots, and most often, those shots are 3-pters. So the only reason Rafer should be replaced is if someone shows up being able to do all the 3 things I mentioned: Shoot from the 3, defend, and pass. Now if you can't get your hands on all 3, then it would be stupid to replace Rafer. I'm just glad that Rafer is USEFUL on the floor when he's not handling the ball. He's rebounding better. He's defending better. My only problem with him is that he would be more effective with 30 minutes a night. We need a backup PG, and we will have him in a couple of weeks whether it's Bobby or Billy: whichever is ready to play first.
Vspan improved dramatically over the course of the world championships and earned more minutes as time went on from that coach. He improved over the course of the pre-season. He has played 6 minutes so far, hitting 100% of his shots, and has 1 steal, and 1 to, 3-5 FT shooting. Easily worthy of at least 3-5 mpg in the occasional game.
Let me get this straight: you tauntingly asked if I had anything of substance to contribute, and now you're crying because I issued a point-by-point rebuttal of your post? And what is this nonsense about asking permission to post? Grow up, dude. It's a message board - don't start debates you can't finish. First you brought up the Pistons game for some random reason; then you complained about Rafer not being a lockdown defender like Bruce Bowen; then you claimed he had "reached his peak" even though we are looking at a major improvement from last year; and then you compared him to Juwan Howard. If you can't be objective with your reasoning, then you should expect to see your posts debunked. That said... back to the discussion. @Zboy: Rafer has been far from a liability in the 4th quarter this season. I dare you to show me stats that prove otherwise. @Ehsan: Rafer is actually our best 3 point shooter this season so far -- Battier isn't the only shooter. Plus T-Mac *is* a shooter -- he's recovering from a bad slump, obviously, but he has made his reputation in this league as one of the NBA's most lethal shooters. Other than that, I pretty much agree with your post. I think everyone is pretty much on the same page as far as expecting Spanoulis to become a major asset off the bench with his defense and slashing ability, and as much as anyone else, I'd love to see it happen sooner rather than later. But as much as I loved the promise he showed in the preseason, he *was* terribly inconsistent. You could see why JVG said "I like what I see" earlier on in training camp, and you could also see how far he had to grow before he could truly become an asset to the team while on the court. We do need a capable backup PG -- if there's anything worth taking away from the first nine games, it is that Luther Head, while being a great scorer off the bench, is not comfortable at the point guard position. Hopefully Spanoulis matures quickly enough to eventually take that position in the rotation (or maybe we'll even see some Bobby Sura soon). But to suggest a referendum on the starting PG position at this point in time (as the original poster and others have done) just does not make sense.
Liability doesnt have to be just in 4th quarter. Rafer is a liability when pressure starts turning up, even if it is in 3rd or so. When Rockets are playing well and they have a big lead, he takes cares of the ball and shoots wells. When the other team is making a run, and game starts tightening up, Rafer starts to sweat and makes terrible decisions with the ball. This has been a pattern since last season, nothing new. Rafer is not a stabilizing player and its something that's really needed since he is a PG. Since Rockets tried to improve this situation in the offseason but failed, they have to ride Rafer for now for lack of better options.
Yeah it has been an interesting back & forth with him - like a waste of time! He has misinterpreted most of what I have said and come to totally incorrect conclusions about my positions. I do not feel debunked or rebutted in the least by his posts. Zboy - I also have seen our opponents come after Rafer with pressure and double teams I think because they know he will become rattled. Personally I wonder why Gundy doesn't do more of the same to our opponents - and help stop some of their runs. But he is not a "blitzing" style coach and I would be amazed if he could add this as a new one to his bag of tricks. I personally think some of the new style players were forced on him by CD and Morey this year - such as Hayes. To summarize, I think Rafer is a good PG, not great, he is hitting his shot now, unlike last season when he was not hitting, and should be playing 30-35 mpg in most games. I think he is much more comfortable in Gundy's system, and as many have pointed out with Yao and Tmac healthy he actually has some good players to work with this season, which only makes him look better. Backup PG and the role of our Bowen type in your face defender are still to be determined - but Vspan should work his way into the 1/2 defender role during this season. Whether or not Vspan can win the backup PG role is still to be determined. Rafer should be a strong contributor for a few more seasons - to be determined by when he starts losing his speed and has to rely more on smarts than his physical ability. Whether or not he keeps or loses the starting job is dependent on who develops, who we trade for or draft and what Van Gundy thinks of all of them - unless Gundy is gone at some point. Big change lately with Tmac directing a lot of the offense and getting a lot of assists. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues. I personally look forward to seeing the effect that Morey and his stat work will have on Gundy and his style of play and player rotations.
JoepeaordE.... Your ballboy Rafer Alston got his @ss handed to him tonight. I know where Rafer is going after the game... ...at the local health clinic for a check up for STDs. Juwan Howard is gonna escort him, since he knows pretty much all the health clinics across the country.
Damn I guess I was wrong. He is a liability the WHOLE GAME, not just the 4th quarter! Here is a stat line for ya... Mins:31 FG:2-8 3pt:1-5 Reb:1 Assist:1 And he couldnt stop my grandmother from getting up from her wheechair. That's Rafer for ya in a nutshell! LOL!
Yao had 8 turnovers tonight, I will bet JVG forgives him and plays him the next game. FREE - V- SPAN !! DD
He only hit a huge 3 pointer in the last few seconds of the game to seal it. Man...Zboy, where do you get all this hate from? You didn't waste any time digging up this thread.
Ha! After he messes up the entire 4th quarter he hits 1 shot!! Whooopdeedoo!!! Notable 4th quarter highlights.... -Airball from 10 feet on open shot. -Stupid foul on Arenas going up for jumpshot. -Earlier bricks from 3 point land. -2 really terrible drives to the basket while ignoring Yao in the block. Umm yeah... that was a brilliant performance in the 4th quarter from a PG who is suposed to be taking care of the ball and stay calm under pressure! If you still cant see how much of a liability Rafer is in crunch time, you my friend are BLIND! What's even more telling is that you had to wait for 12 days to dig up this thread. Things didnt look too good during those rape session, did they? And you do it on a day which was filled with some of the most boneheaded plays and an Airball by Rafer! *Laugh* We were lucky we were playing the Wizards. Had it been a decent team, Rafer's mistakes would have decided the game long time ago. So how many still think Rafer is a PG that can start for a team and perform in clutch that aspires to win a championship? BTW, you have it wrong. I dont hate Rafer. I hate his game.
Oh. I thought it was you who dug the thread up...it was someone else. Yeah, he hit the biggest shot of the game anyway. Sorry my friend, no dice.
Bad timing on your part considering his 4th quarter bungle-up. The part that you are bragging about Rafer on a night when he shot 4-16 and got 2 Assists is REALLY telling! Ha! Sorry bud. But no soup for you!! Thanks for bringing up this thread btw. If anything, Rafer's play tonight proved my point! Oh btw, why dont you head over the game board and read some of what people who actually watched the game without their Rafer-glasses on have to say?
