You don't seem to get it - nobody CHOOSES to have the obesity gene or the dyslexia gene. It's a pretty simple point - were you born not to be able to understand it, or did you just CHOOSE not to be able to? There are plenty of obese africans and asians, and there are more so as they are exposed to calorie laden western foods. Likewise there are plenty of fat europeans who experience the same effect as processed foods become more prevalent . Is it your position that Europeans have stronger "choice" than Americans? Doubtful. (as the chart indicates, thanks wnes.)
So, basically, you are being an insufferable ass? I mean, did a fat kid beat you up in Jr. High or did Momma have a hunger for Hefty dudes and cheated on your old man? Sorry, but either you are being down-right ignorant or maybe I'm being hyper-sensitive for going 6'4" 300 plus. I have tried EVERYTHING with varying degrees of success ultimately met with veraing degrees of failure. I'm now running three to four times a week, two miles and trying to eat MORE during the day--hope this helps. I guarantee that you eat more in a day than I do, if I LOOK at a potato I will get fatter...Don't give me the "choice" crap and boil it down to your simple little insulting package I do agree that there is a culture of gluttony and bad food choices and America is going to have to make some tough adjustments or our medical system will collapse. 10-12 year old kids are developing diabetes as a result of obesity, that is scary. I applaud the CDC looking into trends and conditions and analyzing the habits and food content of this country. If it isn't a disease, it could certainly flair into an epidemic.
If I can mediate between Sam and Martian's point I think you're both right. Genetics pre-disposes someone to getting fat so if you're around high calorie food you will get fat a lot faster and have a lot harder problem losing it than if you didn't have the right gene. There are less fat Africans than Americans because while many of them have the pre-disposition gene they don't have access to the food. So it doesn't matter what your genes are if you're living in Darfur or Somalia you aren't going to get fat if there isn't any food around.
I jsut don't understand what the point the Jedi Master is trying to make about choice. An endomorphic person genetically predisposed to retain fat can choose to excercise every day and eat right, yet still be ostensibly fatter than an ectomorphic person who chooses not to do so; hell,I'm willing to bet that Lindsey Lohan's ankles are still kind of fat in proportion to the rest of her even though she chose to starve herself and coke her way out of 35 pounds. - so how does the choice analysis help us other than a flawed way to imply superiority? The African thing also has a lot to do witht he fact that the first African Americans were primarily West, (not East, like Somalia, etc) Africans who arrived here via slavery were those slaves that could survive the middle passage across the atlantic, - that is being chained up in the hold of a ship with little to no food, water, nourishment, severe diahrrea, dehydration, etc etc etc. Those individuals who did were genetically predisposed to better retain fat, salt, etc (which contributes to high rates of hypertension, etc in African americans).
Morbid Obesity: ICD-9-CM code 278.01 Let's say that you're 5'9" 320 lbs, and you go to the ER complaining of shortness of breath and chest pain. The doctor will probably put that 278.01 code on your chart along with 786.05 for the SOB and 786.50 for the chest pain and it will get paid by most insurance companies. Or, let's say that you need gastric bypass surgery, which is also covered by insurance, what ICD-9 code will be put on the insurance claim form? You guess it, 278.01... Obesity is the leading cause of diabetes in the United States. Other complications caused by obesity are hypertension, heart disease, osteoarthritis, and gout. Just because something is caused by extrinsic factors doesn't mean it's not a disease. Obesity IS a disease, just like the lung cancer caused by smoking is a disease, just like skin cancer caused by sitting in a tanning booth 3 hours a day is a disease, just like arteriosclerosis caused by eating fatty foods is a disease... Obesity is more than a disease, it's an epidemic...
I think some people here (me included) just find it difficult to accept the theory that obese people have little or no choice in the matter - that their obesity is preordained by their genetic code and they they are to be exculpated from any blame. I'm sure that some people are biologically more vulnerable to the factors that cause weight gain - but their behavior has to play a major factor too. An endomorphic may eat the same stuff that another person eats and thus, weigh more. However - morbid obbesity is another matter. Some people may be intrinsically more vulnerable to nicotine addiction - however, that fact would still not excuse their smoking.
Therein lies the problem, in that you equate it with smoking, something that you need an excuse for, something "bad". The ability to retain excess fat isn't bad in biological terms, in fact throughout most of human history, when just getting enough calories to live was a struggle, it was a highly, highly beneficial genetic trait. It has only been in the last 100 years or so when it has begun to be problematic as the enviroment has changed. The funny thing about this thread is the obsession with choice, the point that I can gather is that people who are fat are mentally weaker than those who are not, because they are in part choosing to be fat. I suppose that would be true, if everybody had the same genetic makeup and access to the same caloric package, but everybody doesn't, so it's a pretty useless thing to judge people on. Obviously this won't change anybody's mind, but I don't think there's much more to say about it than what I said.
We bring up Europe because the genetic makeup of a European is the same as a white man in America, yet white Americans (and other races) are significantly fatter. Why? Because of the choices we make. Such as eating fatty foods, not exercising, etc. make Americans fatter. I don't understand how you guys can argue with such easy to understand logic. Europeans and Asians are starting down the road that some Americans are taking, and yes, they are getting fatter. This does nothing to promote your point.
Lol. I'll try to keep my tone down (even though people are attacking me) and explain it more clearly. Obesity is the EFFECT of over-eating. If you don't over-eat, you'll NEVER become obese, EVEN IF you had the 'so-called' "obesity gene". Just like some people are more susceptible to nicotine addiction, if you don't smoke, you won't develop lung cancer (at least not from smoking). Dyslexia is a condition that'll you'll ALWAYS HAVE whether you do nothing or do everything. You are BORN WITH IT. YOU AREN'T BORN WITH OBESITY. Yes. Europeans choose (or by culture) to walk more and eat better foods. Partly because the prevalence of fast food restaurants is not as severe as America and partly cultural. Circumstantial you can say.
I'm guess I hit a nerve. It seems like you're mad at me just because you think that by me saying "it's a choice" AND you being overweight, you feel that I'm calling you weak-minded or unable to conquer your own body. Am I right? I never said such a thing. I understand becoming obese is like digging a hole. By the time you realize you are in too deep, you can't get out EVEN if you were mentally determined or mentally strong. Especially because obesity throws people's body out of whack, your body may 're-program' itself into storing more and more fat even though you don't need it. But you can't deny that you chose to dig that hole. I don't know why you are attacking ME.
I never said having fat is bad. But being OBESE is bad. Obesity is not natural. With obesity come hypertension, increase risk of stroke, etc. Rarely, in the 2 million years (or 6000 if you're Christian) that humans have roamed the Earth, have humans been obese. It's a new and unnatural phenomenon. I never said being skinny is the way to go. I'm saying BEING HEALTHY is the way to go. If you have a BMI of 27, but you run 5 miles everyday with a medium body fat %, that's GREAT. I never said anything about being mentally weak. You guys are inferring it all by yourselves.
This is now officially the most ignorant thing I have ever read. No 1. No "genius," it isn't by choice. Most people have these things called jobs. They are quite demanding on your time and for many people, consume them entirely. For many executives, the "choice" is between working out at 6:00 or being at the office in an attempt to keep their high pressure jobs so they can take care of their families. An economist you are not. 2. Actually, food you buy at the grocery store is loaded with filler and pesticides. An agronomist you are not. 3. This was a joke, right? When did you start writing for the New England Journal of Medicine? Glad to know you figured out in two minutes at your computer what the entire medical community is puzzled over. See you at the Nobel Prize awards in Sweden. A doctor you are not. Does anybody have an INTELLIGENT post to reply to my assertions?
You know what...you really don't get it. You are being attacked in this thread...because you deserve it. Let me give you an example. When I was in college, I knew a very pretty, very shapely girl. She was NOT fat. She developed an ovarian cyst. She had to have the ovary removed. Her hormonal levels were thrown so far out of whack that it eventually caused her thyroid to be affected. She gained weight like you wouldn't believe. It is something she has struggled with her entire life. This was not a CHOICE. A lot of her problem is that now she has to deal with assclowns looking at her and assuming she's just lazy and eats too much. Does that sound like anybody in this thread?
You know what. You don't understand my point. And making snide remarks just shows how ignorant you are. 1. It's their choice to have an executive job. In case you didn't know, people can apply for different jobs. It's a choice. Some people choose to have a high-paying job and sacrifice time with their family. Other people sacrifice high-pay to spend more time with their family. It's all a choice of your priorities. If your job is taking so much time that you can't work out, that's YOUR choice. You can quit. 2. Now you are being idiotic. So when I eat my lettuce and tomatoes, it's just as bad as eating fast foods? Are you saying there are NO nutritious foods available? You are being an idiot. 3. Insulting me on this point doesn't prove anything. Instead, it shows your idiocy.
I deserve it? Give me a concrete example. When did I attack obese people? Maybe I made claims that you feel are wrong. But then, it is your right to ARGUE your point. Instead, you ATTACK me. So are you saying everyone that is fat has a hormonal imbalance? You are not proving anything. When did I look down on anyone? I'm arguing that it's a choice. If I said, "FAT PEOPLE ARE LAZY UGLY B*TCHES AND DESERVE TO DIE!!!". Then you would have a case. But I didn't. Instead, you are the only assclown on this thread.
But you're counting continents. There are over 800,000,000 people in the continent of Europe but only about 275,000,000 in the U.S. On the graph provided by wnes it looks as if you added the European countries together, not even counting the omitted ones, the obesity rates would be about the same, if not worse. My only point is that it can be both by genetics and choice but not just by choice. BTW, you asked when you attacked obese people? Please. You basically called all people who are obese lazy who chose to become the way they are and could've helped it if they wanted to but Refman gave you one of the many examples where it is NOT a choice.
Why is genetics coming into this? It only explains a fraction of the obese people. Yes, there are some people who are predisposed to becoming fat, and they really can't help it. But these people probably comprise a small percentage of the population, much like a small percentage of people have mental or physical disorders. I think people have to exercise self control and exercise. But also, we can make the "environment" better for people. I would have no problem with schools banning fast food and coke machines, for example. Just keep the federal government out of it, leave that kind of thing to Europe and Califronia. I don't think its a uniquely American problem either. Look at how most countries are trending up, I also read an article about the problem in Mexico.
