Speaking as someone who's married to a high school teacher and related to an elementary school teacher, I would disagree with this. Teaching high school is harder because the discipline problems are much worse. In elementary schools, there are kids who act out, but I think there are rarely problems with violence and gangs. I would also be willing to bet that a higher percentage of students are eager to learn in the lower grades, and that makes a big difference. I think most of the teachers here would agree with me that teaching is not the difficult part, making students behave and making them want to learn is the hard part. I think that both of these things get tougher as the students get older, until you hit the college level. Oh, and I want to emphasize that in no way am I saying that teaching is an easy profession. I certainly wouldn't have the patience for it and would probably end up in prison for strangling students.
Look - teachers could be paid more, but to me they would need to earn it in a meritocracy..... They should be reviewed, tested, and held accountable just like every other job in America. Summers may not be the full 3 months, but teachers get between 3 and 4 months off each years....which is a lot more than most people. Nothing against being a teacher, but at least let's get the facts correct....and be honest. DD
DD, I've already broken down my yearly schedule which shows that your number of 3-4 months off is WAY off base. Here are the links: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=4777136&postcount=96 http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=4777202&postcount=98 Plus another BBS member posted saying their schedule was basically the same: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=4777476&postcount=114 Perhaps we actually ARE being honest and your perception of the facts of life as a teacher are distorted? As for meritocracy, I'm all for it! As a quality teacher, I'm fine with being accountable, and I think it's a GREAT idea to make sure that teachers are highly qualified. Quick question though: what do you do when teachers fail to meet that qualification? Dismissal? Re-training? When there is a teacher shortage already, what is your plan for the inevitable loss of teachers that comes with a meritocracy? It becomes a problem of numbers: too many students, not enough teachers.
Ahh yes, but high schoolers rarely pee on the floor, suck their thumbs and cry for their Mommies. Strangely enough, I think the percentages are about the same. The difference is in high school, if you want to learn, you're a "geek" or a "nerd", so even those with a desire to learn hide it for fear of the perception of their peers. This is the main difference between secondary (HS and JH) and elementary (EC/K-5/6): in elementary the teaching is more difficult, but the students are easier. In secondary, the teaching is easier, but the students are more difficult. Truth be told, as someone who has taught both, I think they are equally difficult, just in different ways. Yeah, by the time they hit college, they're smoking so much pot that they get pretty compliant.
This is almost word for word the case with my gf, and yes, she cares very much about her students and how well they're learning. That's not to say I don't believe certain teachers pull 12 hour days. Everyone's situation is different, I'm sure.
This is what happens when you passively accept the reality of conservative fiscal policy in which the wealthy are not taxed sufficiently allowing them to speculate on fine wines, coastal real estate, derivatives etc. and such needed infrastructure such as public education is starved for funs.
As an example, here is a link which shows that HISD began classes on 08/24, but teachers were required to report on 08/10. In addition, if you do further digging, teachers were required to be in some sort of training or development 12/21 - 12/23 when the students were off. This occurs at other times as well. http://www.houstonisd.org/HISDConne...8c010VgnVCM10000052147fa6RCRD&vgnextrefresh=1 From your post, it appears you are calling "BetterThanI" a liar.
I am saying there is some serious exageration and spinning going on, yes. And even if teachers report 2 weeks early (they are not working the full day etc), and they still get 2.5 months off......and then all the single holidays, Labor day, columbus day, 3 days for Thanksgiving, 2 weeks for Christmas, MLK day, Good Friday, Spring Break, Memorial day. It adds up to between 3 and 4 months off a year....... I understand grading papers can take some time, but there is some time that people could do that during school hours...like off periods for example... Being a teacher should be honored, I certainly think it is cool.....I would be doing it now if it paid well....it was one of my favorite jobs ever.....just not enough pay for me. That being said....there is not a lot of acheivment availalbe in public schools....I am in favor of testing teachers, and rewarding the better ones with bonuses as meritocracy warrants. DD
You are spinning it....why would anyone take the 2 weeks off to not count as your time off? And coming in an hour or two a day to get your classroom right at the end of the year is hardly a full working day, nor is the 2 weeks before school either.....it is like a very relaxed period where teachers come and go as long as they get their stuff done by the beginning of school year, let's not act like you have to be there for 8 hours during that time.......or even a full day... You get more time off than the average worker in the USA, and not by a little bit, but by a lot.... There is nothing wrong with that, it is a perk of being a teacher, but you know it, and everyone else knows it. If you are tired of it, and certainly everyone has that right, then move into something else.....but realize you will more than likely be working longer hours, and have far less time off. In my business for example, we usually work 50 hour weeks and during crunch time, the last 6 months of the project up to 100 hours each week. Now, we do it because we love what we do, but it is a lot more hours than other professionals put in...and if you took the hours and divided the pay into it, we are probably under paid.....but it is our choice. Just like any job in the rest of the country, you put them on notice, offer them training and a chance to cure their issues. If they are unable to do that in a 2nd or 3rd attempt they are fired....consequences. There is not a shortage of teachers here in Austin, we have a glut of them.....too many for too few jobs..... I would say that school districts that have a shortage, should get some sort of hiring bonus program to help them fill their ranks with quality teachers. My experience in teaching was when I taught Jr. High history after graduating college, and I found most teachers were great, but their time management skills sucked....instead of getting their work done at school etc...many of them screwed around in the break areas during their off periods and then took their work home...that is a choice. The better time mangers, did their grading during times students took tests, or had reading assignments, or during their off period.....and thus were able to leave about 3:30 every single day...... I know you are speaking from your experience, and I can respect that....I just think you are seriously exagerrating your lack of time off....when the reality I experienced is much different. I would like to hear from Falcon's talon on this, he is a teacher, and a coach....and you invariably get the "Summer's here, I am off" post from him...as he gets to his nearly 3 month summer break. DD
I heard Sears is losing alot of customers and money, so logically if they stay open 24 hrs. a day they will become profitable. Who decided that the answer to a better education is more time in school? The problem is one of character in my observation. Parents and kids. If we want our students to be successful they need determination, diligence, responsibility, orderliness, attentiveness, honesty, thoroughness, initiative, punctuality, alertness, creativity, endurance, gratefulness, sincerity, dependability, and self control: just to name a few. If these are imparted at home and at school kids can succeed with less time in school then they spend now.
How do you propose we do this? IMO The whole TEACH TO THE TAKS is a bit of the problem to me So . . How do you 'Test' the teachers? What Merits? Rocket River
I hate teach to the Taks......hate it......one of the biggest problems is teaching to the test and not teaching critical thinking. I do not know how to test teachers, but I would guess it would be like any other job in the world where you have goals and are judged by whether you hit them. DD
Thanks for the accusation. Let me retort by saying you have no clue what you are talking about. Let me say it so that it cannot be misunderstood: SUMMER VACATION IS NO LONGER 3 MONTHS! Period. Last year, our students got 10 weeks (2.5 months) off. Teachers had to report two weeks before and one week after. (full days, not half days, so one again you are WRONG). 10 - 3 = 7 weeks. Subtract the week of summer training (7 - 1 = 6) and the three days of required professional development (6 - .5 = 5.5) and you get 5.5 weeks. If you take into account that every professional I know gets two weeks vacation (5.5 -2 = 3.5), then you see that teachers get only 3.5 additional weeks of summer vacation versus any other professional. This is not spin. It's not opinion. It's FACT. Come work in my district and see if it's not. Which EVERY professional gets off, so is not additional time that teachers get Students get the day off, teachers in my district are working. Again, which EVERY professional I know gets off, so it not additional time off for teachers I already conceded that point. There's one additional day. Students get the day off, teachers in my district are working. Students get the week off, teachers in my district are working. One more day, though many of my professional friends get that one, too, so I really don't think it should count. But ok. That's two additional days teachers (actually, all state and federal employees) get: MLK and Memorial day. 3.5 + .5 = 4 weeks. Add two weeks for Christmas you get 6 weeks. 1.5 months. That's the true additional time I had off last year as a teacher. Nice? Sure. But, again, you pay a hefty price for it. 10-12 hrs per day at $35,000 a year. Only if you don't know how to add. PeriodS? Plural? Hahahahaha! When should I grade the papers, oh wise one: during my 25 minute lunch or my 40 minute parent-conference period, while Mom and Dad are sitting across the desk from me? So much so that you call a teacher a liar when he tells you the FACTS of his teaching calendar. Doesn't sound too honorable to me. I actually agree with this. I just think there needs to be a plan in place to deal with the fallout from such a program.
Exactly. But it is difficult to judge/manage Setting a Teachers fate in the hands of kids and how kids take test maybe a bit folly esp in high schools where kids know they have a say over the teachers Rocekt River
Let me also point out that there is a difference in what happens during hte work day. In office jobs, when your eyes get tired or your brain starts to go numb from too much work, you are free to get up, go to the rest room, grab a cup of coffee. There are the so-called water cooler conversations. You are free to ask a question of your co-worker in cubicle next to you. You can sit back and make a strategy of the best and most efficient way to tackle the next work project etc. As a teacher you can not do any of this. You have one break a day plus a short lunch. Other than that, at least at the elementary school level, the students demand your time. You have to be monitoring constantly. There are no just stepping out for a quick phone call moments for teachers. They have to be productive almost non-stop at their job. It wears you down.
Ok, fair enough...you do full days. Ok, so right now, you are saying you are at 3.5 MORE weeks of summer vacation than the average professional gets all year - got it. Ok so at least you admit you are getting 6 extra weeks off a year, that is more than 10% of the whole year that the average work force person does not get. And, 10 - 12 hours a day? Really? Are you doing extra ciricular activities? I mean let's say you report at 7:30am and the kids get out at 3:30pm - that is 8 hours...what are the other 2-4 consisting of? Mom and dad are sitting across from you EVERY SINGLE DAY ??? I am not calling anyone a liar, just saying you are grossly exaggerating to try to prove a point. We do agreee. Look, I am not trying to disprespect the craft but there are perks to teaching that you are ignoring....primarily at least 6 weeks extra off a year.....that is more than 10% of the entire year off...that the rest of the work force doesn't get. And you keep saying 10-12 hours every day, and I do believe that some days you do have to work those hours, but so does everyone else in the world...I bring work home too....but, not every day, the issue I have with what you are saying is that you are making blanket statements that seem not realistic. 10-12 hours every day 40 minute break - implied parent conference every day I understand you are frustrated, but to me, it seems like you are taking the extremes to try to make a point. I agree teachers should be compensated more...but I also believe that should be based upon merit...... One last thing......How the hades do you have time to type a rebuttal at 9:37am? Shouldn't you be teaching, or grading papers, or parent conferencing? And, are you counting this as part of your 10-12 hours of daily work? And to answer how I can do it? I work for myself.... DD
DD, you aren't "calling anyone a liar," but you say he's "grossly exaggerating?" Funny you should say that, because it is exactly what you were doing, and he was not. Now, yet again, you change your story to fit your failure to make a argument that doesn't hold up. DaDakota, you're better than this. Why can't you just own up to being wrong? Look, many in my family are or where academics, at universities and in public schools. I grew up surrounded by people who sat around the dinner table talking about this stuff. And you are wrong. Are there bad teachers, lazy teachers? God yes, and there are the same at universities. That doesn't alter the fact that the majority work their tails off for too little pay, and then have to listen to people like yourself who will spout off at length the things you are spouting off about, positive that they are right, and more than willing to continue saying they are right, even when they are not. And people wonder why teachers often quit the profession?
Deckard, come on...10-12 hours every day? A parent conference, every day? That is not exaggerating? I did, I said...fair enough. Fine, I was wrong about the time off, I thought they had more than an extra 6 weeks a year than the average person. Huh? I am not degrading the profession, but 6 weeks off ...EXTRA....a year is nothing to sneeze at. And the benefits are really good compared to most companies packages. I don't wonder that at all, they are underpaid and underappreciated for the most part. The problem for me is there is no plan in place to pay them more when they are the better teachers.... Meritocracy is lost in the current scheme of pay. And the bottom line Deckard is they chose the profession, they are free to choose another one. DD
