I understand their are different interpretations from different "Bible believing" denominations but at the core of their beliefs God's moral ethics are black and white, if they do in fact serve the very same God. Believe it or not these "Bible believing churches" argue about little things like believing the church carpet should be red instead of blue which are absurd. We can go on and on about different interpretations. I can go on and on about topics such as capital punishment, gay rights, etc etc. But that would be too time consuming. The original argument was "how do we define sin". Sin is defined by disobeying God period. Edit: The God of the bible, The God of Abraham and Jacob, The I Am etc, etc. In any case, I'm not trying to say my understanding of God is perfect. To err is human, and last time I checked I am one. All I'm saying is that though the Bible is deep and profound, the core values are the same from denomination to denomination. Also, when you're talking about "denominations" who are you referring to? You seem to lump everyone who "believes" in God together. Amish do not believe in the same things the Baptist, Pentecostal do.
There is no substantive difference between that definition and what Obama said. Obama talks about sin in terms of his values. But in the same conversation, he talks about his values as something deeply tied to his Christian faith. In other words, if he's "disobeying God", or at least his understanding of what God expects from him, then he's going against his own values. It all boils down to the same thing. Obama, ever the politician, gave an all-purpose, universal definition of sin. His "sin" reduces to what you're talking about, if you take into account that his values derive from his understanding of his God's will. You happen to define sin as disobeying the God of Abraham. That definition might make sense for you and other Christians, because your values derive from the Bible. But that's too specific, too exclusive for non-Christians.
If you're suggesting that the Truth is relative then that's a whole argument in of itself. Truth is absolute. To say that everyone has their own definition of something universal would create chaos in the world. Oh, wait I think it's already happening.
Well, yes and no, or perhaps I should say yes, you'd think so, but... Maybe it would be easiest if I used a couple of examples. "Matthew 7 Judging Others 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." This passage is black and white and well known by pretty well all Christians, and yet how many churches do you see openly engaging in judging others? Here's an even more fundamental one: "Romans 3 Righteousness Through Faith 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." As Christians we are no longer under the Law. This is in black and white, and it's something that every Christian knows. We are justified by faith, not works. The focus of a Christian's life isn't on obeying the Law. By doing that you would effectively be saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough to cover your sins. The focus of a Christian life should be to continue to seek God and grow in your faith, and to live your life out of the Spirit of God. And yet, as I'm sure you know, there are large denominations that focus almost exclusively on telling people to obey the Law.
I believe that there is an absolute truth, but the key point here is that our understanding of that truth is imperfect, highly imperfect. In other words, none of us can claim to know exactly what that truth is. This is why we are never to judge. Here's another interesting and challenging passage related to this topic. Romans 14 The Weak and the Strong 1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord... http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom 14;&version=31; There is more on this topic in the latter part of the chapter.
I haven't had alot of time, here is more or less some defining terms, it is from a letter the Apostle John wrote to answer the very question you asked. John's first letter, chatper 2 (NLT) 1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. 2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. 3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did. That seems simple enough for me. there are other simple scriptures that fill out the picture...maybe I will post them later Arguing over bible verses is useless, if you know Jesus, you will love Jesus, you do not understand the bible until you live it so many bible descriptions of a christian- Jesus is the bridegroom, a christian is the bride Jesus is the vine, a christian is the branch Jesus is the shepherd, a christian is the sheep I could go on and on, it is not hard to understand. We don't need to judge who is a christian and who isn't, that's like trying to remove tares from a wheat field, God knows how to do that. Let them grow together. I have responsibility for a church so I feel a very heavy responsibility and accountability to God for what I say, I also look at what they hear or read... this is what a shepherd does when it leads a flock to good grass, you don't want them to eat something that will make them sick or hurt them... they also need to check out what I say, I think most of my sermons/messages/talks are in one of 3 categories God/Jesus loves you You love God/ Jesus Love others I try to cover every bible subject under those themes- from salvation to service for Jesus
If you asked me if Obama is a Christian based upon the interview I would answer this way... let's not try to figure out where the answers came from, we don't know him, let's understand the questions and find God's answers.. I think I would rather get God's perspective from the bible on a question than use the question to judge someone else by their answer. that is exactly what the pharisees did, they asked jesus questions trying to find a fault in his answer instead of seeing who he was... you can see if someone loves Jesus with all their heart, what Jesus means to a christian is what the grip of a lifeguard means to a drowning man, nothing means more than that grip
Interesting thread and good initial post. Its refreshing to read a politician not use religion to justify his views or bash people with it. This is a really interesting point. I didn't think that Obama was being a politician in that regard. Do you think that if Obama wasn't a politician he might've given a more specific answer?
I'm in no position to judge who is or who isn't a Christian but I do find the discussion intellectually interesting. If we aren't saved by works then are Obama's actions necessarily the basis of whether he is a Christian or not? For that matter does the matter of if he's obeying God's laws or not proof of his Christianity? From what I've been told is that it is the acceptance of faith that defines his Christianity so short of being able to see into his heart it seems like his profession of faith is what has made him a Christian.
not really. Religious people for years including protagonists in biblical stories have wrestled about what exactly those standards are. Even Jesus asked about why God had forsaken him, and I think that kind of questioning from one who clearly knows more than I do about God's wishes is very telling. In fact during the training and learning about religion that Jesus went through questioning the teacher on what God's standards were was an accepted part of religion. The tougher questions and more unanswerable the questions were about God's standards the higher the better the student was expected to be. The council that put the bible together also had differing ideas on what God's standards were. They did come to agreement, but to say that it is clear cut, seems almost against what's written in the bible.
Here's one view of it: James 2:14-26 Faith and Deeds What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
^ That is interesting but discussions like this always come down to the issue of death bed confessions. It seems to me that a death bed confession essentially says that faith trumps acts in terms of what it means to be a Christian, as accepting Jesus as savior and finding salvation.
i'm not comfortable with reducing God to hypos. i'd have to think through scripture regarding death bed confessions...but pretty sure i won't find it. turns out it's not that black and white. i do like how you just reduced new testament scripture in a conversation about christianity to "that's interesting, but....."
I apologize if that sounded patronizing but as much as you won't, and shouldn't, downplay your belief I'm not going to downplay my non-belief. In the end you're a Jesus freak (and I mean that as a compliment) and I'm a skeptic. I find Christianity interesting and admirable in many regards but when it comes down to issues such as faith and salvation I can't muster more than intellectual interests in it. Of course when you talk about faith in the Rockets and Stros I'm totally there with you.
By belief, which I think I can backup with the Bible, and will attempt to do so if you wish and can bring me any seemingly conflicting verses, is that salvation by Grace is the one and only route, but that once one becomes a Christian they will be compelled to live in a way that is consistent with the Law. They will do good deeds, in other words. So if you became a Christian on you death bed, (I don't think mere confession is enough, btw), then it doesn't matter if you don't do any good deeds before you die. The deeds act as a check. They aren't a condition of salvation. Here is rhester's quote again, for example, from 1 John 2: "3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&version=31 If you are motivated to do good deeds that is a conformation that you are in a good place with God, or even more basically that you are a Christian. If you are not motivated to do good deeds then that's a pretty good sign that you were never a Christian in the first place. This is kind of a crude way of putting it, but I hope it's reasonably clear.
It must be late. That should read, "My belief ...", and later on the word should be confirmation, not conformation.
What makes salvation personal is the personal love God has for you. When I think of all the wickedness in the world, the hate, the prejudice, the abuse etcetcetc. and I think in Christian terms it comes down to God is able to forgive what I would call the unforgivable injustices and evil because of great love. That Jesus would suffer punishment in place of the wicked that rightfully deserve such justice is unique and to offer forgiveness (in my Christian mind) an extreme love. The fact is in Christian terms is God does not want anyone to be punished. He wants to forgive everyone. THe obstacle is the pride and selfishness of the heart. So God has put faith in His love overcoming man's pride and selfishness. The clearest message of His love is Jesus dying on the cross. It is true that Jesus while on earth loved and helped the worst of people and healed people of disease and helped the poor and the disadvantaged people, but we can all do this to some extent, that he would go further to suffer for the forgiveness of all people takes his love to the highest level. I was a very prideful and selfish person, I was more than skeptical I was beligerent towards God. So at least in my case I find his forgiveness and love personal. I hope at least these are good intellectual considerations to the discussion. And the scriptures that FrancisBlade and MadMax posted are some of my very most favorite. (but let me qualify that- I'm often accused of saying that about most every scripture at some point )
Wait..this wasn't about you believing. I thought we were just discussing what Christians believe. I'm really confused as to what we're talking about. You posed a question (I assume) about deathbed conversions. I'm pointing out scripture to you that suggests that works is the evidence of faith. My suggestion is that scripture might tell you what a Christian would believe about the topic.
