Obama Talks Religion, 2004

Jesus didn't claim to be God in a metaphorical sense. I understand how some non-christians can confuse this. It is Budhist's belief that Buddha reached a oneness with God through some kind of Nirvana, but Buddhists don't worship Buddha as God but more like that bridge Obama speaks of. But that is not Christianity. One fundamental is the Doctrine of the Trinity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One and God. Jesus is the Son of that Trinity and God. It's ironic that is simply defined in the name of Barack's church, the Trinity of Christ. There is nothing metaphorical about that. If you do not believe in the Trinity than it is likely you do not believe Jesus is God.

 

According the Judiasm, Moses asked God what he should say to the Israelites if they ask him who sent him. God told Moses to say "I AM has sent me". When Jesus replies "I AM" he is equating himself to the God of Moses and Abraham. This is why the Jewish leaders were upset.

I was responding to your question of whether or not Jesus equated or claimed to be God. Clearly he did, at least to me. I think its important to remember that Jesus was a Jew. And so his statements about God must be viewed in the Jewish traditions. To equate yourself with God on any level would not be acceptable for a human, according to Jewish law. Jesus was most certainly a Jew, he made the journey to Jerusalem each year for passover, and was identified by Pilate as a Jew during his trial. For him to equate himself to God, as a jew, would make him either a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord.

 

You mean it is above your pay scale?



DD

 

I agree that Obama is trying to be measured and common sense about it. I don't think he sounds arrogant. I think he sounds wishy-washy.

My own belief is similar. I don't think Jesus or the Apostles need to be bat**** crazy to make divine claims -- just a little bit peculiar. And, then in a community where they can reinforce one another and can become insulated by external persecution, a slight peculiarity can become a very crazy notion with babysteps. So, I also think Lewis' suggestion is a false dichotomy. But, I do agree with him that 'great teacher' is not an attractive option. If he's not God, he's not worth listening to at all.

 

Let me elaborate on what I said before. First and foremost a person's relationship with God is personal. We could go into this more if you like, but this is a central part of the New Covenant, it's central to the biblical idea of being born again, etc. If you'll forgive me I'll use some Christian language here, but we can come back to it and deconstruct it if you wish. Once a person fully submits to God and makes that connection with God, then that new understanding, that change to your nature, makes you start to see the world in a fundamentally different way. First, you want to know more. You want to seek out Christian community. You want to read the Bible, and you want help people. You start to exhibit the fruits of the spirit as your new nature (see Galatians 5, although note also that you never become perfect at it, and you will at times have some real struggles.) But it all stems from your personal relationship with God. You don't do it because someone told you to do it. You don't do it to gain some earthly reward. You do it because you want to do it, because it's part of your new worldview/nature. This stuff can get a little murky, but I hope this is clearer. If not, feel free to as more questions.

Now, there is also a nominal form of Christianity where people do these things because they're told to. I think that what that kind of thing is best addressed by 1 Cor 13, and some other passages as well.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 cor 13;&version=31;

 

For me this is another thing that came after I became a Christian. It was only then that it came to life for me, and things started jumping off the page at me and resonate with me. Everyone comes to this from where they're at, but for me the question of God, a greater power, a higher level of meaning, a being who might be our creator and have a purpose for our lives, and who might be able to intervene in our lives, came first. I really didn't see the point of him or her having a son at that point. I do now, but that wasn't central to my path to God.

 

I'm comfortable saying that I believe he's a Christian. He did sidestep saying directly that Jesus was God Son and one with God, but the rest of what he said convinced me that he's a Christian. His motives seem very Christian, and even the forms of questioning he does seem very Christian to me. He is a politician, and they are aware that if they say certain things certain groups will jump on them, and I suspect that this is one of those cases. He didn't deny it, he just sidestepped a possible controversial response.

 

I think the community component is essential in one's quest for personal spirituality.

What people mistake/fall into is when they use that community component as a source of prestige.

 

this stuff is weird...and peculiar..and all that. no doubt. but it's my experience too. things you used to count as gain, you now think are worthless. things you used to value, you now see little to no value in. i can't explain that. or at least i can't explain that in a way that passes muster around a message board like this.

 

Jesus was God, but he was also man, that is what makes his story so miraculous. So to comment on him being a man isn't wrong or un-Christian.

As far as judging whether or not Obama is a true Christian or not, isn't my place. If he says he is I will give him the benefit of the doubt. If I'm wrong the sin isn't mine.

 

It really shouldn't matter who's a "Christian" and who isn't. Whether someone believes in a God or believes Jesus is God, that's their personal business. If God exists, and the identification of Jesus as God is important to Him, then He'll pass judgment as appropriate. What should concern us is how we treat one another, our deeds.

The Christian religion provides a framework on how one should behave and treat others. If we want to judge the extent of Obama's Christianity, let's do it on that basis.

 

Yeah, very wishy washy.

It can be arrogant should one get the impression that Obama's values is what Obama thinks is right rather than what God and the Bible tells him what is right/should be done, such having a relationship with God that allows him to act within God's plan.

Not sure if I mangled what I'm meaning...

 

it means i'm simple minded

my pay scale is minimum wage

 

Sin is not defined by what we believe is right and wrong which is what I was trying to explain. Obama I believe has his own standards apart from God. Case in point, he supports infanticide, the killing of failed abortions because of a woman's right.

We don't pick and choose which standards we want to adopt from God to personalize and form our own. We either follow God or not. When we don't that is sin.

To make things clear, I don't determine what's right and wrong for myself. I go by His absolute standards.

 

I believe God's standards are clear cut according to what the Bible says, not what people perceive Him to be. People are entitled to their opinion, but in the end the truth is absolute.

 

The problem is that his absolute standards have been under debate for thousands of years. And can't there be situations where his standards, as expressed in the Bible, may not yield obvious, clear-cut answers?

 

Actually Max, I think you do a great job. From my point of view you have done a very good job of representing the Christian faith here. And there have been times when I've been struggling and I happened to come by here and read some of your posts on Christian issues and been very encouraged/inspired/strengthened by them. If I haven't said it before, thank you for that. Remember that you're talking to Christians as well as non-Christians here. It's also been my experience that you can never tell what might have an impact on someone. I've heard people talk or give testimonials that have really moved/inspired/awakened something in me, but when I talked to them afterwards I found that they thought that the main thrust of what they were saying was a very different point. It has sometimes even been the case that I didn't think they did a very good job of making the point they thought they were trying to make, but that something else they said, incidentally, had a huge impact on me. God works in mysterious ways sometimes.

 

Remember that different denominations have some very different interpretations of the Bible. Are the Amish right?
Have the non-drinking, non-dancing, Baptists got it right? Have the Prosperity Theology people got it right? How about capital punishment? And if we take the position that the Bible clearly states a position on all these thing, are we saying that our understating of the Bible is perfect? Are we saying that our understanding of God is perfect? Imo I think it's a little more complicated than what I hear you suggesting here.

 

Or when they follow it blindly. An extreme example would be a cult. In cults people give up their own responsibility to discern what is right and wrong and choose to blindly follow someone who tells them what to believe. Some churches have historically leaned fairly far in that directions as well, and unfortunately a fair chunk of Islam appears to be leaning that that direction too.

W.r.t. community, I think it's very important, but I would stop just short of saying that it's essential. There are times when people are isolated for one reason or another and I believe you can still grow in those situations, but in general a good, supportive, seeking, community is enormously helpful, imo.

 

Remember that he's not a preacher or a teacher. He's just Joe the Christian, so maybe we should give him some leeway on the way he talks about his faith. Just for curiosity sake, what kinds of things might you have expected him to say?

W.r.t. arrogance, what Obama said about humility was a key for me:
"They want the Holy Spirit to come down before they're preaching, right? Not to try to intellectualize it but what I see is there are moments that happen within a sermon where the minister gets out of his ego and is speaking from a deeper source. And it's powerful.

There are also times when you can see the ego getting in the way. Where the minister is performing and clearly straining for applause or an Amen. And those are distinct moments. I think those former moments are sacred."

I also think ego is related to things like frustration and anger, and when those things creep in they get in the way of the message too, and they can even distort it. This is something that I'm guilty of at times, and it's just not helpful at all.