You know what? Let me restate it more appropriately for you. The ambivalent nature of jesus towards worldly concerns turns this statement from something exclusionary (the standard dogma of modern christian religions) into something completely and utterly inclusive. God is within all of us. It's our self-imposed seperation that causes the disconnect, not some stupid classification thought up by dogmatists and bigots. Most so-called christians are not given a chance to listen to any feelings of concern towards the sensation that there is more to salvation than simply mouthing the words, “I believe in Jesus.” And that's intentional. It's a propogation of ego by corrupt priests and leaders to promote bigotry. Think about that. Promoting bigotry in the name of christ. That's a cosmic joke of such scale that I cannot put it into words.
The Bible - if someone could prove that it is anything more than just a book written by man, they would change the world. DD
Rhester - I have no issue with your reliance and faith in the bible. We disagree and diverge substantially at that point. However, nothing I have said contradicts the bible, for what its worth. With respect to the possibility that god imposed the disconnect, I find that neatly in line with the garden of eden mythos of the bible. Regardless of bible-based veracity, such a point hardly refutes anything I have said.
The whole christian idea that Jesus is exclusive, the only way, everyone else is wrong should not be a prideful arrogant concept 'only christians are right, everyone else is wrong'- like rhad said- what bigotry! that thinking misses the entire spirit of Jesus, I'm very ok with Jesus is right and man is separated from god the christian concept is that man and god are separated because of man's sin so the concept of sin must be understood- whole 'nother discussion now I don't like to talk about sin because I am prideful. I think I'm a pretty good person, I don't understand what's the big deal with god about being unloving, selfish and 'ok' doing whatever I think is right as long as I don't think anyone else is hurt I am so prideful that I resent someone else bringing up sin, I like to think I am just as good as the next person, and that's probably right but I certainly am suggesting that I am just as good as god or at least that I am so good that god should have no say about my character- more pride on my part back to sin- not only are man and god separated by man's sin- sin is so exceedingly wicked/destructive/damaging that god cannot participate in or condone sin, in fact god views sin worthy of his wrath, that means sin is most likely more vile and detestable than most of us comprehend the idea of sin goes beyond a temporary separation from god and separation can have many meanings- certainly the state of separation can include 'by sin', god, in the bible takes it further and condemns sin because it is so destructive (wicked- is the bible word) because sin can be defined and viewed many ways there is much confusion about this unless god reveals his view of sin we will have a very poor understanding of Jesus god's virtue of justice results in god making judgments, punishment for sin in mercy, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice, taking an undeserved punishment on man's behalf I am not confused by god's judgments, I understand justice and right and wrong; but I am very amazed by his mercy. How could god love me so very much that his son Jesus would die for me? I am very selfish and proud and I fail often- I feel completely undeserving of mercy, but through Jesus death on the cross I receive an increasing understanding of God's motivation of love towards all people that act of dying on the cross for the sins of the world is exclusive to Jesus this is an act required of god to offer forgiveness of sin to man it is a gift offered by god to the entire world, but not on the basis of religious practice, but on the basis of reconciliation or dealing with the sin issue Jesus and god are not american christians so that is the wrong context to look at because Jesus died for evey man his death was not exclusive at all, but since he alone provided the forgiveness of sin, then forgiveness of sin is exclusive to Jesus it certainly is not intended to be a means of condemning others since it is precisely a means of forgiveness for all people- Jesus did not come and die on the cross to condemn but to forgive exclusive? no, the message is for everyone, Jesus commanded his first disciples to go to every person and tell them this message I don't have the memory or time this morning but I would have rather posted a bible verse for all of the above
I believe Jesus himself says that he is the way to the father. Is that not a metaphorical bridge? If Jesus is the reason why people experience God's forgiveness is that not a metaphorical bridge? I don't think it is unchristian to say Jesus is a bridge between man and God. That is especially true if while saying it, a person doesn't deny the fact that that isn't all that Jesus is.
Start in John 8:53. Jesus tells them of his relationship to God, and that he would be a liar to deny it. Jesus says he is the "I am", which is the God of the jewish leaders he was speaking to. He says that his father is the one they call God. Then they get pissed and try to stone him, but he bails. My belief is Jesus is God incarnate, sent to reconcile me to God. Yes, its confusing. You have to think about it every day. You have to study, you have to learn. You have to read, you have to apply what you read. Just the other day I laughed out loud in my car, and spit coffee on the dashboard when I read a bumper sitcker that said "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church". That is a statement that makes no sense. I don't mean that last part to you, durvasa. just a rant...
I see that, I appreciate good discussion and I certainly am just expressing my opinions I want to post more bible verses, let them speak for themselves, not to prove my opinions or validate them, but to get the source on record, bible verses communicate better than I do (if I try to put bible verses in here off the top of my head you will see the rhester translation is pretty lame) I just have to get some things done this morning, but I think this is a very important subject for us all to discuss
There are a lot of "holy men", even nowadays but certainly 2000 years ago, who believed they had some supernatural powers. It's a form of delusion, no doubt, but that doesn't make them dishonest or even crazy. There's a spiritual leader in India who's called Satya Sai Baba, he also identifies himself as being one with God. He claims, and there are people around him who verify this, to perform "miracles". Now, is he being insincere, or is he perhaps crazy? Not necessarily either. In the Hindu faith, God is believed to be all-pervasive, and the physical nature of the world is mere illusion. So, technically, he can claim to be God and in a metaphorical sense not be lying. Perhaps Jesus believed something similar -- that God is within us all, and when he says stuff like "I am" that's just him channeling his "inner God". But again, I say all this as someone who has not read the Bible. Maybe it's a silly suggestion.
being out of line with GOD's standards. If the standard we rely on are each others moral values we would surely come into conflict with one another because it's safe to say that everyone has differences in opinion. I'm not defined as a sinner according to Obama's moral values (I certainly don't see eye to eye on most if not all of his beliefs). I'm a sinner because I disobey God. You also have to understand that everyone in this world was born with a "sinful" nature ever since the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden. It's when a child reaches that point of accountability (where he/she understands what they're doing) when "sin" becomes dangerous because God can not tolerate sin which is what separates us from Him. However, God in his love for mankind sent Jesus to die on the cross as a sacrifice to forgive us of our sins so we can have an opportunity for redemption and as a bridge to cross the huge gap between God and man. It's a free gift to accept Him as our own personal Savior.
I need to go back and read it...but my understanding is that even among the grand total of THREE PEOPLE REPRESENTING THE ARIAN VIEW at the Nicean Council, their views weren't all the same. That there was room in the Arian viewpoint for the idea that Jesus was more than man but less than God the Father. Personally, I don't spend too much time with these issues. I believe the Jesus who I understand from the Gospels. But I do think it's funny that so many people act as if these controversies were so huge. There is always a dissenting view. But there were about 400-500 or so bishops present at the Nicean Council, if i recall correctly...only 3 didn't sign it.
But that's not what he's saying. He identifies "sin" based on what he believes to be right and wrong. And you do the same. Everyone does that. I don't think anybody who believes in God would adopt a value system they know to be opposed to His standards. Obama's definition of sin is, I would say, truistic. Ultimately, all people understand sin in the same way -- if it doesn't fall in line with what they believe to be "right", it is wrong and therefore sin. This isn't contradictory to what you're saying; it's just more general.
True. My parents believe drinking alcohol is a sin. Not getting drunk, merely having a sip. They also believe it is a sin to side with the "enemy"---i.e., not support America's wars. I guess a lot of people DO define God's view of sin with their own mind.
People create ideals of what a good Christian should be based on their own limitations. God certainly doesn't approve of drinking alcohol because I never touch the stuff, and I am the most righteous human being on the planet so I must be doing His will!
Exactly! And the sad thing is, he pretty much forms his view of sin based upon what James Dobson and Republican propaganda e-mails tell him. I'm not going to judge Obama's spirituality; I agree with a lot of what he said in that interview and disagree with other things. But I can tell he is honest about it, and doesn't say the "right" things just to sound sure of himself. I don't think there are any Christians out there who have never had doubts about what they believe in. I will continue to pray for him and continue to believe that one shouldn't confuse politics with religion, more specifically patriotism with "following God's will" - Jesus is white, middle-class, a "real" American, and conservative - which I see happen a lot.
The thing is, for at lest several hundred years, all of the Germanic tribes were Arians. They may have been a small viewpoint at Nicea, but they represented a significant population. It was a fairly large schism in the early Christian church - the largest until Eastern Christianity left Rome in the 11th Century.
I don't pretend to know what Barack meant when he said what he said. If it is a metaphor than so be it. But it is fundamental Christianity to believe Jesus is God. Across all Christian religions there are a handful of understandings. We are saved by our faith not by our works, the Bible is the Truth, the Whole Truth and nothing but the Truth, the Doctrine of the Trinity; Father, Son, Holy Ghost are One in the same. Jesus is the Son of God and thus Jesus is God. Show me someone who doesn't believe that and I will show you someone who doesn't believe in Christianity. They may believe Jesus is a very wise man like Ghandhi, although I find that difficult to fathom. Think about it, if you met some bearded man roming the streets saying I am god you wouldn't proclaim him wise. You would call him a lunatic. And if he showed up at your work and said follow me and you shall be saved from eternal damnation. You wouldn't say lead the way. You would have him commited. Those sound more like the words of a lunatic and we all know once a man is labeled a lunatic all else is irrelevant. Read the Unibombers Manifesto. Jesus' words only become the divine truth if Jesus is God. So it is not unchristian to say Jesus is a bridge between man and God as long as you fully understand Jesus is the Son of God. If you believe otherwise you are not a Christian. Ghandhi is a very good man but he is not a CHristian. In that article Obama's answers do not indicate he is a Christian. You cannot read those words and determine his belief in Christianity. It doesn't mean he isn't a Christian because certainly Christianity is more than words, but with that article I can at best say I don't know.
didn't Jesus turn water to wine and didn't they drink wine at the passover? whenever you post I feel like apologizing as a pastor (not to blame your parents for anything), but to apologize for the 'american' version of Jesus I have leaders in our church who smoke cigarettes so families leave the church because I don't throw those sinners out someone asked me what I thought about tattoos? I don't think about it.
