This is going to sound strange too. I am a Christian, but based on my experience I don't understand how I could have come to understand Jesus without becoming aware of who God is first. I'm sure there is a way. Everyone has his or her own unique life and unique path, but from my perspective Jesus being divine and the Son of God seemed improbable at best, and a seemingly unlikely way for God to communicate with is, if indeed he or she existed. Once I became aware of God, however, then Jesus started to make sense.
This is the last I will post on this subject. I am not sure if it serves any purpose and more importantly whatever words are written only God knows President Obama's heart. But I do want to be clear. I am not debating whether Christianity is right or the new testament is factual. I have doubted my faith at times and certainly it is important to question your beliefs. I am simply saying a fundamental belief of Christianity is Jesus is the Son of God and part of the Holy trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Therefore Jesus is not a Bridge between man and God, He is God. If you debate that you are debating your very own Christianity. This is not a Catholic idea or a european idea or a Socialistic Idea. This is simply a fundamental belief of Christianity. And while their are a wide range of ideas and beliefs on how you practice your faith there are still fundamentals that all true followers of Jesus Christ agree. And one of those main points is Jesus is God as defined by the Trinity. Of course anyone can disagree with this just as Bill Maher very logically says the concept is ridiculous but they are not a Christian. Anyone can interpret Jesus teachings and come up with ideas of love and faith and kindness but Jesus clearly states he is the Son of God and the Trinity defines that as one in the same. The words Of President Obama can be misunderstood or not representative of his true beliefs or simply wrongly stated. And I certainly can not argue against that. But Jesus is no more a bridge between man and God than Satan is a Bridge between man and the Devil. It's more than semantics it's a fundamental of Christianity. And that is all I have to say about that.
I find this more understandable than Lewis' argument. Your argument could be restated as "once I found faith, than I had a better idea regarding jesus". I think that's better than "you cannot have any faith unless you agree from the beginning that jesus is god". It's still, of course, predicated on faith. Which is precisely my point - Lewis' argument turns that statement on its head.
none of the sides in the Arian controversy were suggesting he was "just a good teacher." by the way...it's interesting to me that we have so many people suggesting these scriptural verses were made up and worthless...and yet by all accounts, they were the very pieces of scripture that all sides in this debate used to discuss and frame the issue. clearly they...far closer to the events the gospels purport to describe...thought them to be true and authentic. i love your point, rhad. i look to acts and the writings of the early church fathers (as well as the writings of those who talked about them) to illustrate how the early church suggested one was to be christian. "Those godless Galileans feed our poor in addition to their own." -- Emperor Julian "I am a soldier of Christ and it is not permissible for me to fight." -- St. Martin of Tours "Say to those who curse you, 'You are our brothers!'" -- Theophilus of Antioch "Acquire no more here than what is absolutely necessary. Instead of fields, buy for yourselves people in distress in accordance with your means." -- Hermas "I do not wish to be a ruler. I do not strive for wealth. I refuse offices connected with military command. I despise death." -- Tatian "The Christians form among themselves secret socieites that exist outside the system of laws...an obscure and mysterious community founded on revolt and the advantage that accrues from it." -- in a letter to Origen "They charge us on 2 points: that we do not sacrifice and that we do not believe in the same gods as the State." -- Athenagoras "If the Romans followed the teachings of Jesus, there would be no barbarians." -- Origen
I'm with you MadMax. It's a shame more people don't know the teachings of the early christians. That is true christianity. Not this bogus form that people claim just because they believe in something but yet their lives reflect nothing of it. David W. Bercot writes some great books on the matter.
And that is a big part of the problem. It's still not clear to me why they felt the need to define this idea of the Trinity. I'm guessing that it was in response to some popular heresies of the day, but I guess I've never read enough into the history of it to find out. My church is a bible based non-denominational church, and we just don't talk about it. It is not in the Bible, after all. History has focused on the corruptions at the leadership level, and there has been plenty of those, but Christianity is fundamentally about personal relationship between an individual and God, and there are lots of examples of individuals who have lived quite remarkable Christian lives. I don't mean to suggest that all leaders are bad either. Many of them are very good, but the leadership is not infallible, and the individual is ultimately responsible for his or her own decisions and walk with God.
And why not? I believe in Jesus as a person who existed on this planet and that he was a great man. I also believe that the various religions that came into being, in large part, from his existence, have frequently distorted his words, used them for ends never contemplated by him, and in many cases, made the religion more difficult to believe than Jesus could ever have foreseen, were he a man, as I believe. Sadly, from my perspective, and with all due respect, I'm not at all surprised that you feel that way. I simply disagree.
The Arians were arguing that Jesus was human, was not God, and was not eternal. The Arian position is closer to 'good teacher' than 'Jesus is God'. They ranted and raved that he was in no way God, but rather a special human being created for a special task. That was what got them excommunicated.
Yes, I would say that once I "found faith" Jesus started to make sense, in many ways. Frankly I didn't know very much about Jesus at all before I became a Christian, because although my family is nominally Christian, we rarely went to church and I had never had any kind of Bible study. The idea of finding faith is an interesting issue as well. What is it? How does it happen? I don't know of any neat and tidy explanations for it. It is a personal journey, culminating in the epiphany of epiphanies. It's called a faith, but there is nothing I'm more sure of in my life.
you don't need to know much about the bible to be a christian. Being christian is about loving those who are less fortunate than you and having christ in your heart. In the end, no one will judge you on knowing athanasian creeds. I don't think obama will use his faith to promote $elf.
A president of the US is not required to be a Christian. I rely on the bible 'only' for my beliefs so I want to clarify that prejudice. President Obama claims to be a Christian. I believe with certainty that both non-followers of Jesus and followers of Jesus make that claim. For me personally the questions raised in this interview are the most important questions in this life. The most profitible thing we could do is discuss what you and I believe in our own heart regarding Jesus, sin, the Holy Spirit, and what is written in the bible.
As a recovering christian, I disagree. Fundamentally, christianity is about much more than just one's personal relationship with god - it's a set of social and ethical qualities rooted in an understanding that god is in you and in everyone. As such, focusing solely on oneself or one's singular relationship with god is the antithesis of christ's teachings. In my opinion, the real message of jesus is that we are to let go of our selfish and currupt ego and submit to the unity of love. I cannot think of anything less "personal" than letting go of the delusion that one can be "better" than another, when god is within all of us.
they are not christians but many claim to be according to the bible- going to church does not mean you are a christian reading the bible does not mean you are a christian believing in God does not mean you are a christian praying does not mean you are a christian doing good does not mean you are a christian christians may do all those things, but non-christians may also do all those things as a simple example a hypocritical person may claim to be a christian and do some or all of those things so professing to be a christian in faith and practice is not evidence of being a christian in the bible there are some very simple evidence given for a christian for example, a christian receives the holy spirit here is one of many bible verses on the subject- (Romans 8:9) "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)" Jesus addressed this often also, he laid out alot of clarification concerning his followers, for example another verse- (Luke 14:33) "any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple." much of the New Testament is written to address this one issue- the difference between a non christian, a false christian and a christian
I am glad you brought this up because (even though it is a passage from Paul...) it's a great illustration of the ambiguity inherent to any argument surrounding this "real christian" silliness. I submit that anyone willing to proclaim another person spiritually inferior is merely trying to mask his own fear and doubt.
rhadamanthus- that is a very good point concerning our focus on one's self. that is very much the antithesis of christ's teaching. I like your defining the real message of jesus we are not better than anyone else, that is a delusion I certainly can understand that god works in us all, it is clear in the bible that his grace is evident for everyone, Jesus reconciles the relationship that man has lost with God god is not within a non christian like he is in a christian, according to the bible
I agree, and it is prideful to put down someone else I really appreciate your post My own views are prejudiced by my belief in the bible and I admit to relying on it exclusively I do not believe the bible is open to individual interpretation, I find it's own claims are that it is simple when god reveals its meaning even to a child but I believe strongly it is open to understanding/mis-understanding, application, and prejudice
You've made a (highly inflammatory) statement without defining the terms. What is a christian rhester? Be very specific.
