It's pretty simple on this issue. It's more simple than just about any other issue discussed on this board. Either you support freedom of religion or you don't. If you support freedom of religion there isn't anything wrong with the Mosque going up.
I totally missed this in responding to Batman. At his request, I went back and found your post and respond as follows: Whether one of those two positions is like the other or not is irrelevant. These are clearly the positions that are out there. This being the case, in order to get anywhere we must deal with them...warts and all. Of course there is danger in what is going on here. Do you really expect to alleviate that danger by saying "bigot" and calling it a day? I would certainly hope not. As a follower of Christ, I believe that in order to change how this issue and similar issues are viewed by both sides requires to win the hearts and minds of the people. This cannot be done through force or through the fear of being ostracized as a bigot. This has to be done by understanding where the other side is coming from and working to alleviate any fears or misconceptions that are in the rationale for their position. The collective failure of the human animal to attempt this throughout history has led us down a bad path over and over. The tactic of tossing an epithet (like bigot) and then telling somebody that their feelings are invalid will not help. It will only serve to entrench the person more deeply in the very behavior you seek to avoid. If this view causes me to go down inestimably in your book, so be it. I certainly regret that it is so, but I will have to live with it. I have been incorrect on a good many things in my life. I ardently believe that this is not one of those things.
Re: Ref's response to rimrocker, there is a basic flaw in the premise. Refman, you rail against the use of the term "bigot," but fail to look at all at what has caused and then stoked that thing we are calling "bigotry." The Republican Party is now running on an anti-Islam platform. Period. They have calculated that being against Islam (and calling Obama pro-Islam or even Muslim himself, although he is a Christian) is a winning position for them. I will cede the point that it is unhelpful to call people bigots. (That's a pretty big cede for me, as you know.) Will you return the favor by responding to (or perhaps addressing for the very first time) how we got into this pro-Islam/anti-Islam mess in the first place? Because it falls at the feet of the party with which you vote.
Of course. The human instinct when something horrific happens is to find somebody or some group to blame. Often it is based on irrational fear. That is what has happened here. It is wrong. It is dangerous. It is the type of thinking that can lead to otherwise peaceful people to feel the need to defend themselves and can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. It does not have to be that way. As you are aware, I have been unhappy with Republican Party leadership in recent years. This is something that I diverge from them wildly on. I do not believe that it is the right thing to do to play to the fears of people. I responded to rimrocker in the manner I did because I know what side he is on. I responded to him directly in a sense. Collectively, we as people have a long way to go. Sadly, because of our collective inability to discuss things in a rational and productive manner, more people will die needlessly.
Congratulations to Refman for proving that supporting a bigoted position will get you called a bigot. Position: A mosque should not be built 2 blocks from Ground Zero. Why: It would be offensive to 9/11 victims. Assumption: Islam is responsible for 9/11. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot Main Entry: big·ot Pronunciation: \ˈbi-gət\ Function: noun Etymology: French, hypocrite, bigot Date: 1660 : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Obama shows he can moonwalk. “I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there,” Mr. Obama said. “I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That’s what our country is about.” heh. Spoiler
I am for freedom of religion and I am against the mosque going up. SO is 30% of the American population (Fox News Poll ), about the same as the number of people who want to use legal action to prevent it form being built (34%). You liberals have such a hard time with the concept of being opposed to the mosque going up but not wanting legal action to prevent it (You fail to even see that as an option in your post). The reason I think you have such a hard time with this is cause you are used to big government; aka forcing your morals on others. Some of us find this practice unethical, and we don't do it. As in, we are morally opposed to their being a mosque at ground zero and would not like to force this moral opinion on others.
Sarah writes well: Mr. President, should they or should they not build a mosque steps away from where radical Islamists killed 3000 people? Please tell us your position. We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they? And, no, this is not above your pay grade. If those who wish to build this Ground Zero mosque are sincerely interested in encouraging positive "cross-cultural engagement" and dialogue to show a moderate and tolerant face of Islam, then why haven't they recognized that the decision to build a mosque at this particular location is doing just the opposite?
Even if you were correctly interpreting this definition correctly it wouldn't matter. Liberals have over played the race card and have lost credibility in its understanding. So far we have seen liberals make the argument that the Tea Party is racist and it has a 41% approval rating , support of SB1070 makes a person racist in liberal eyes and it has a 59% approval rating, and now being opposed to a mosque at ground zero makes you racist and 64% of Americans oppose it. I would have to guess but I think that leaves about 10% of the population of America left that liberals don;t think is racist. Why would you live in a country you thought was so racist?
It seems you are begrudgingly accepting of religious freedom rather than a staunch proponent of it. Islam didn't kill anyone on 9/11. Terrorists did. Why should there be a problem with the mosque going up. To equate all Islam with the 9/11 terrorists is incredibly ignorant. It has nothing to do with morals of anyone. It has to do with there being no good reason why a mosque shouldn't be built on the site. Oh, and for the record the mosque isn't going up at the actual site of ground zero. Sarah Palin may be too stupid to know that, but you shouldn't be. For the record I'm glad that you aren't opposed to any legal action to stop the mosque.
Some might say the mosque is at ground zero (although its a silly debate. you say tomato type of thing). I don't know what percentage of American I speak for, but I wouldn't want any religious buildings in the area (the ground is sacred and no religion has claim to it). I would guess most people don't specifically want a mosque because the attack was done in the name of Islam (even if they don't represent the majority of Islamists). I think to most Americans it seems like a poke in the eye to put a building celebrating the very thing that the attackers were murdering for (even if they are misrepresenting Islam).
copy and pasting from cnn.com just a reg poster i thought she summed it up well : Tracy It's interesting to me that most of the people in the US who decry the mosque in NYC don't live here, don't know the area and, in many (if not most) cases, have never even been here. Those of us who are here, who know the layout well, and who were directly affected by the attacks in an immediate way in our daily lives, are generally in support of the mosque. For the record, I'm Catholic and I lost someone in the attacks. I have Muslim friends who lost people that day, too, and some of them are still affected by the fallout because of the prejudice that seems to be acceptable these days. They're probably angrier about the radicals in their religion than any of us non-Muslims.
Polls show that most New Yorkers don't approve of the mosque (52%) so I am not sure who she claims to be representing. I don't really understand the "some of the victims were Muslim" argument. I don't think Americans care what religion the victims were. The reason I would guess that they oppose the mosque is because the attack was carried out in the name of Islam.
I'm having a hard time making sense of your "morals=big government" rant. If it is libruhl to support the notion that is one of the core values leading to the founding of this nation and which is enshrined in the constitution, i.e. freedom of religion, then call me a socialist! This has NOTHING to do with liberals who are "used to big government", whatever the f*** that tidbit is supposed to mean, forcing their "morals" on everyone else. It's a simple concept that is THE LAW OF THE LAND, not mob rule borne out by raw emotion in opinion polls. I get that you don't like it, I'm not particularly thrilled about it either, but it isn't subject to national polls, FOX news, Palin's cult of personality or "liberal morals".
Except that I never supported that position. You would know that if you learned to...you know...read.
