So you finally get it. Bravo, bravo! Now apply that logic to what is being done by Palin and company to the mosque. Finally you get it.
No, I got it from the very beginning. What I am saying is that, pursuant to your stated definition of liberty, we do not have liberty so long as we have things like racism and sexism. Therefore, you believe in order to have liberty that we quell those dissident notions. That sir, is not liberty. Oh yeah...if it is over 60% of the populace, it is not just "Palin and company." Just a thought.
A second question...why is the proposed structure going to be named Cordoba House? It is a very interesting name given the history of Cordoba. The Christian Visigothic Church of St. Vincent was turned into a mosque following the Islamic conquest of the Visigothic Kingdom. Why name the structure after a mosque that was founded in 784 AD as the result of an armed conquest? If and when it is built, I hope that they decide upon a different name.
They did. For you. They changed it to Park 51. Because they were told that the name may be offensive, and then immediately decided to make changes to suit the community.
That is the type of action that will, over time, lead to greater understanding. I find it disturbing that 60% or so of the populace is so vehemently opposed. It is also disturbing that some would believe that said 60% is comprised entirely of far right wing Republicans.
Because it at least partly stands for planting a flag into conquered land. That's why. Some people will try to fool you into believing otherwise, but the originally chosen name is very telling. Sure, they backpedal now that they realize it would be bad to stick with the original name, for PR reasons.
I think a lot of that number is based on misconceptions and misinformation being tossed around there. You have people saying this is being built as a shrine to terrorism, that it's being built on ground zero, that it's causing pain to the victims (as in all victims - without acknowledging that some victims families are supporting the mosque). There's a lot of stuff being thrown out there and misinformation spread. Also, it is an emotional issue. And that's why it's so important it goes forward. Because the is the sort of tests the founding fathers had in mind when they created the 1st amendment and 2nd amendment. Can our society hold up to this test? If 99% of people felt a mosque should not be put there, then that's all the more reason to build it. It's not what you, I, or anyone feels. Because none of us can truly and fairly judge what the intentions of these people's religion is. Even if they did name the Cordoba house as a means of symbolic conquest. Even if it was to make a mockery of 9/11. It still can be built. Yes, people can protest. But they can't stop it. What disturbs me isn't that people say, it shouldn't be built there because of the emotions involved. I can accept that reasoning. It's the attacks on these people as terrorist sympathizers and that the money is coming from fanatics. These are outright lies. No money has even been raised for instance - how can they make that claim. The demonization that goes on is what deeply troubles me, and makes me feel outrage. One thing to truly say, hey, pick another place. It's another to attack these people unfairly though. And really not a productive thing to do - and that's what everyone should stand up against no matter what side of the issue you are on. And I am positive 60% of the people don't think all Muslims are to blame for 9/11 like some are saying on the right.
Not necessarily true. You can not make sexist remarks to an employee for example. Personal liberty usually is extended fully to free speech until it actually restricts another person's liberty. You can protest for example, but you can't actually prevent people from going into an abortion clinic. Nor can you stand outside of a clinic with a sign that says, "If you come in here I might have to take things into my own hands". Back to the issue at hand, I don't think anyone's liberty has been violated thus far in this whole mess. But if somehow they stop the building of that mosque by intimidation or pressure (for example making threats, passing legislation against mosque building near WTC, and such) that does cross the line. Does trying to have the building marked as a historical landmark cross the line? No. It's a nasty way to do things. Ethically wrong for sure. But it's fair game since if the gov't says it's historical or not, then that's the way it is. But it's a b.s. way to go and I'm glad it didn't work.
Frankly, I highly doubt that 100% of the population is aware of the issue. So I highly dout that 60% of all Americans are opposed. So it seems to me that 60% of the people they surveyed were opposed, and that may be a skewed number. Could you point me to where this statistic originated?
I forgot to point out that the word Cordoba comes from the name of the Imam's establishment which was established in 2004 called the Cordoba Initiative. It wasn't specifically selected for the mosque. Others will have you believe all kinds of stuff, so it's good to watch out.
Time Magazine Opponents of the planned Islamic community center and mosque near Ground Zero in lower Manhattan have public opinion firmly in their corner. According to a new TIME poll, 61% of respondents oppose the construction of the Park51/Cordoba House project, compared with 26% who support it. More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Opposition to the project appears to derive largely from the conviction that the proposed site of the project — just two blocks from Ground Zero, in a building that formerly housed a Burlington Coat Factory outlet — is so close to "hallowed ground," as President Obama put it. Yet the survey also revealed that many Americans harbor lingering animosity toward Muslims. Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24% who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim. In all, just 47% of respondents believe Obama is a Christian; 24% declined to respond to the question or said they were unsure, and 5% believe he is neither Christian nor Muslim. (See TIME's photo-essay "Muslim in America.") And while more Americans are open to the idea of having a mosque built in their neighborhood rather than near Ground Zero, it's still not an overwhelming majority; 55% of respondents say they would favor the construction of an Islamic community center and mosque two blocks from their home, and an equal number say they believe most Muslims are "patriotic Americans." As he attempts to shepherd the U.S. through the sluggish economic recovery and galvanize Democratic voters ahead of a congressional election cycle in which the party is expected to sustain heavy losses, Obama's approval rating has held relatively steady, at a near even split: 46% of respondents back his job performance, with 45% expressing disapproval. Voters are far less enthusiastic about the President's policies, however, with 57% asserting that the U.S. is headed in the wrong direction. That wasn't the only grim news for Democrats. The GOP has snatched the lead in generic congressional balloting, with 43% of likely voters saying they would vote for a Republican candidate if the midterm elections were held today, compared with 37% for Democrats. (Last month, Democrats held a slight edge in generic balloting, 43%-42%.) While those figures augur well for the GOP, harping on the mosque issue — a tactic many Republicans appear to have embraced as the overheated debate nears a boiling point — seems unlikely to give the party's fortunes a significant boost. Nearly three-quarters of voters told TIME the issue will not have any impact on their decision in the ballot box.(See "Ground Zero: Exaggerating the Jihadist Threat.") While the poll revealed that prejudice toward Muslims is widespread, respect for other religious traditions remains sturdy. Respondents held the Jewish faith in the highest regard, with 75% professing to hold a favorable impression — just slightly higher than attitudes toward Protestants and Catholics. Fifty-seven percent say they have a favorable view of the Mormon faith, compared with 44% for Muslims. Despite (or perhaps because of) this widespread antipathy, 62% of respondents say they don't personally know a Muslim American. The poll, conducted by Abt SRBI, surveyed 1,002 adults — 89% of whom identified themselves as likely voters — on Aug. 16-17.
There should be no hard feelings in the first place. Just because terrorists bombed the building doesn't mean every muslim in the world or Islam itself is evil. What about all the Christians who hanged and tortured people during the Salem Witch trials? Should all churches be razed in Salem since apparently all christians believe in witchcraft and seek to torture innocent folk? What about when the Vatican ostracized Galileo for saying the world is round? Should no churches be built around any science facilities because apparently all christians are stupid? Anyone who feels bad about the building of the mosque should be ashamed of themselves for feeling that way. That's like blaming all christians for the dude who drove a plane into the iRS.
Cordoba responds to a time when the muslims were in spain, it was actually known as a golden era BECAUSE it was about accomplishment in the sciences, etc and most of all because it was one of the unique rules at that time that focused on tolerance in that none of the christians and jews at that time in the country were asked to convert or leave as was done often with a new rule at that time, instead they lived amongst each other and flourished. That is why its the Cordoba mosque, that is the reference. Its interesting, I find myself (as a born and raised american muslims) really thinking this alquaeda and these terrorist are my biggest enemy, not just as an american, but as much as a muslim because they defaced the religion and stand for everything I have learned about and read in the quran and completely manipulated and butchered it for their agendas , I saw it as an us against them on the other side of the line, but now with all these news i realize I turn around and theres another line where people have drawn behind me and see me in that group as an us vs them. Its quite disheartening
Here are some things to consider: All from here: http://www.srbi.com/time_poll.html Seems to me the poll is, at least, slightly skewed. If you go on to read the other ludicrous things which the respondants came up with, you would disregard the poll altogether: If the opposition is a group of people who do not believe Muslims should run for president or be members of the Supreme Court, then the Imam and his project have respected the opposition far more than they deserve already.
Great. Like the Daily Kos reporting on a CNN poll better? CNN has a new poll revealing that 68% of Americans oppose the "Ground Zero Mosque" -- including 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 72% of whites and 58% of non-whites. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/...und-Zero-Mosque-poll:-Its-all-in-the-question Also interesting, from USA Today... ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) — A majority of New Yorkers remain opposed to a mosque proposed as part of a planned Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero and the issue will be a factor for many voters this fall, according to a statewide poll released Wednesday. The Siena College poll showed 63% of New York voters surveyed oppose the project, with 27% supporting it. That compares with 64% opposed and 28% in favor two weeks earlier, results that are within the polls' sampling margins. Democrats nationwide, including President Obama, have defended the proposal as protected by the Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom. Many Republicans have called it an affront to the memory of those killed in the Sept. 11 attacks. PROPOSED MOSQUE: Obama makes it a national issue OUR VIEW: N.Y. mosque fight stirs all the wrong passions NYC PANEL: Green light for mosque near Ground Zero In a new question, the latest poll found that many New Yorkers believe the project is protected by the Constitution, even if they oppose the plan. Nearly two-thirds of voters, 64%, say the developers have a constitutional right to build the mosque. Twenty-eight% say they do not. Among those who oppose building the mosque, about half agree that developers have the constitutional right to build it. Twenty-eight% of mosque opponents say they do not have that right. Nearly a quarter of voters questioned said the issue will have a major effect on which candidate for governor they support. Thirty-seven% say it will have some effect, while about 40% of voters say it won't matter. The poll showed Republican Carl Paladino, who has taken the hardest line against the project among the candidates, is continuing to gain on Rick Lazio heading into the GOP primary and also gaining on Democrat Andrew Cuomo. Still, Cuomo continues to have twice the support of either Lazio or Paladino. Of those who see the issue as a major factor in their vote, almost all — 92% — oppose building the mosque near ground zero. Cuomo has only a narrow lead over Lazio among those voters. Cuomo has defended the project, saying it is protected by the Constitution. Lazio wants an investigation into who will fund the $100 million project. Paladino said it is akin to a Japanese war memorial at Pearl Harbor, the site of the 1941 attack that brought the United States into World War II. As the Sept. 14 Republican primary draws near, Lazio's lead over Paladino, who has tea party activists among his supporters, is shrinking among Republicans. The lead is down to 13 points at 43% versus Paladino's 30%, with 27% undecided. That compares with Lazio's 20-point lead over Paladino in July, although the margin of error is greater when only Republicans were questioned, reflecting the smaller sample. The telephone poll questioned 788 registered voters Aug. 9 through Monday. It has a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-18-mosque-ny-ground-zero_N.htm The bottom line here is that the poll results come from a number of sources. I am tried of looking them up at this point. I am sure they are all skewed in a terrible conspiracy or something...but there they are.
Repped. Though I'm not American, I fully understand and agree with you. It irritates me that someone has drawn a line between me and them, indicating that I'm on the terrorist side. I shudder at the thought of a confused teenage boy in some poor, Sharia-dominated country seeing images of Americans refusing a mosque, or the French refusing the Niqab, or the Swiss refusing minarets, etc. Although, as I stated earlier, mosques/niqab/minarets mean very little to me with my personal beliefs, the banning of such things sends a strong and hostile message to the youth. You'll see that the people you are talking about share a common trait with Al Qaeda - intolerance. The solution, though, is not to re-enforce the line on either side. It's to inform and teach and educate through setting a good example.
Mehh. I'm just saying, there seem to be very unusual elements within these polls. It's important to keep in mind that the popular vote is not always the correct one. I used to do these phone surveys and I ask that you to consider that, those who are vocal against the mosque are far more likely to participate in the survey than those who are indifferent or who do not see it as a problem.
I've got a question for my fellow Democratic friends. Politically, not morally, would it have been better for the President to give essentially the same response to the question of the Mosque/Center in a more informal way, rather than the manner in which he did it? While I admire his stance and have supported it, politically, should he have handled the issue a bit differently? Been a little less "out in front" of the issue? Not made a statement in front of "a group of about 90 people, including Muslim community leaders, ambassadors, dignitaries and Rep. Andre Carson (D-Ind.), one of two Muslim members of Congress. After his statement, a number of individuals reportedly rushed to the stage to shake Obama’s hands following his unexpectedly direct endorsement of the mosque." http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41060.html This was the image widely circulated after the surprise speech in support of building the facility. The President and his inner circle seemed to realize that they may have made a political miscalculation, since the President backed away a little from his statement not too long afterwards. Poll numbers seem to be trending down since the event. Thoughts?
He should have said that as President, his job was to enforce the constitution no matter how unpopular the issue at hand is. That he is obligated as president to uphold the tenets that made this nation, that this is our strength, and not a weakness. He could have said, that by the same token, people can protest and express their opinion. That's is the American way. He could have said that there is a lot of misunderstanding about Muslims and the intents of the people building this mosque, and encourage those who have concerns to learn more. He could have spoken more about the Imam and the role he played in helping moderate Islam and how he has helped improve America's image abroad in the Muslim world and state that he is a true America who serves the ideals honorably and that even under Bush he was employed by the gov't because of this. Had he said all of that, I don't think the negative reaction would have been so large, and in fact, there would have been more acceptance and understanding.
Probably the best post you've made on this entire matter. Agree 100%. Although I personally oppose the mosque, I support the government defending their right to build. I don't think people should change how they personally feel about Islam, or any other religion, just for the sake of "image" reasons... but I will support the government's constitutional defense of an idea I disagree with... and that does more for the image of America than anything.
