One thing that scares me about Obama is that he can turn perfectly reasonable person into a cult member....
oh lord someone attacks obama on some dumbass accusation someone defends the accusation on its dumbassedness some dumbass calls the defender a cult memeber
As in all things to do with this primary battle, you are seeing and hearing what you want to. I posted yesterday to say that I don't care any more about Hillary's Bosnia or 9/11 problems than I do about this or the questionnaire flap. You keep suggesting that Obama supporters are unfair to Hillary and point up her problems while ignoring his and you keep suggesting they are exactly the same -- just regular politicians -- with any difference owing only to Obama's slyness. This is neither accurate with regard to the facts of the campaign nor the responses of the candidates' supporters. I have enunciated various problems I have with the way Clinton's run her campaign and asked for comparative problems with Obama and you have repeatedly ignored the requests, pretended they didn't happen and then said once again, they're both the same kinds of politicians and any suggestion to the contrary owes entirely to partisanship. You have done that, over and over, even though I have pointed out various instances of difference between the two (none of which has received the benefit of response from you). It's really frustrating, Deckard. I wish you would just one time provide a direct, point for point defense of that position rather than repeating the same shallow mantra over and over again. Without an on-point response, there is no difference between you doing that on Hillary's behalf (regardless of who you voted for) and the board's wingnuts dismissing every criticism of Bush by saying "everybody does it." Regardless, on this point in particular, you are wrong. You say Obama supporters will blow this off but would have bashed Hillary for a similar thing. I'd say Bosnia and the 9/11 flub are at least similar things and I posted yesterday to say I don't care at all about them.
Because anyone who regards any politican to be anything more than the lesser of evils is a "cult member." Get bent.
The only cult memembers are the republicans who are now supporting mccain after running his name through the mud eight years ago about his so called crazy temper and his illlegitimate black child eight years ago. the cult of the republican
Let me give it a try: 1) They both lied: Obama: Wright, Kennedy connection, amount of Rezko money 2) Their surrogates both attacked with fervor: Obama: monster, ask the other side to quit
By cult member, I mean someone who disregards facts and reality. You guys liken him to be the Second Coming but the facts show otherwise.
Batman, I suspect you would drag up what you see as me avoiding answering you until doomsday. At one point, you said you had blown it off. Clearly, you drag it up when you want to "hit me' over something you don't like. Care to answer the question? If Ms. Clinton had done the same thing, made an error in her biography the same way, she would be hammered. Mr. Obama does it and not only are excuses made, but those pointing out the disparity are attacked. The question being, do any Obama supporters (besides me) see the conflict here? You want it both ways. Mr. Obama being "perfect," regardless of any mistakes on his part (which make him appear more human to me, but whatever), but if Clinton did the same thing she gets attacked and vilified. Unlike the previous poster, I don't think there is an "Obama Cult," but I do think there are a host of Obama supporters who will go to great lengths to defend him, even when he is wrong. Fine. Go for it. I don't have to, simply because I believe he is a politician and a very good one, but still a politician, for good or ill. Trim Bush.
But even here there are stark differences. I'm not sure what part of Wright comes off as a lie by Obama. But with the monster incident, it was one incident vs. a series of incidents and was dealt with in a very different way. I think the monster vs. Ferraro incidents as well as Clinton's campaign accusing Obama of being a second Ken Star shows exactly how different these two are. The Ken STar comment which is worse than the monster comment wasn't handled at all. In fact Clinton supported the statement. Rice was removed from Obama's campaign. Ferraro's nonsense wasn't dealt with for weeks, and Hillary still hasn't been emphatic in denouncing the message and asking Ferraro not to speak out on her behalf. Obama has not circulated quotes about Hillary from other folks and tried to make it look like it came from somewhere else. The differences go on and on. Obama has made slip ups, and mistakes, but seems to have dealt with them straight away. He's no saint, but his campaign has been more above board and sleaze free than just about any in recent memory.
They both have noses and legs too. Neither of those things is a response to the posts I have addressed to Deckard explaining my reasons for opposing Hillary and the profound differences I recognize in their approach to the campaign. Here they are. Feel free to try again. 1. Hillary has repeatedly (and knowingly dishonestly) mischaracterized Obama's positions on core issues, in an attempt to mislead voters about his positions and his record. Those core issues are health care, Iraq, abortion rights and party loyalty. More on this below. 2. Hillary and Bill have repeatedly suggested that McCain is more clearly ready to be commander-in-chief than the Democratic frontrunner. This is unprecedented in Democratic (and I'm pretty sure Republican) primary politics. And you can't provide a single similar situation coming from the Obama camp. More on #1... 1. Health care: Hillary has repeatedly suggested that Obama's plan will selectively leave people out. The key here is "selectively." The truth is that the people that aren't covered under his plan won't be covered because they choose not to be -- not because Obama chose not to cover them. In fact, she even approved mailers with faces of ordinary Americans with a text that read something like "Who will Obama choose not to cover" or "Which of these people will Obama decide to leave out." She also said in a stump speech something like "Will he choose to leave out the single mother with breast cancer I met today?" Hopefully you have a good enough understanding of their plans to understand the dishonesty here. If not, let me know and I'll explain it further. 2. Iraq: Hillary has both suggested that Obama's opposition to the war was nothing more than a single speech and one that had no consequences and that he then decided to support the war and she has also tried to push the lie (and Bill has too) that she and he were always against the war and that her vote to authorize force was not a vote to authorize force. In fact, Obama took an unpopular position during a Senate race. And he has never supported the war. I don't have time to go into the detail I'd like on any of this, but Bill and Hillary have been incredibly dishonest about Obama's history and position on the war and their own. I'd be happy to elaborate tomorrow or so. 3. Abortion rights: Hillary has spent a lot of money on mailers and ads suggesting that Obama wasn't a reliable supporter of abortion rights because he voted "present" on the issue a number of times. In fact, every time he did that he did it as a part of a strategy endorsed and supported by the local chapters of NOW and NARAL. The former head of NARAL-Chicago switched her support from HRC to Obama in direct response to Clinton's dishonesty on this. 4. Party loyalty: Don't even get me started on the Clinton camp's dishonesty about the Reagan comments. Good luck finding similar stuff proving Obama is trying to trick Democrats about Hillary's positions on the ISSUES.
If you don't bring #1 up, I don't even know about them. These happens mostly in stump speeches when she was preaching to the choir. I believe majority of voters never heard about these misrepresentations, so this is really not a big deal. I am not as into this election as you are. I didn't hear/read many Obama speeches. I don't think I am bothered to find examples. #2 is no big deal for me because she is telling a fact. I would say McCain is the most ready among the three. Most qualified to be C-in-C doesn't mean the most qualified as President. So whether this is unprecedanted or not is not important for me. I don't think these are big deals but YMMV of course
Deckard: You have tried to use Obama's response to the MLK comment as somehow being equal to Clinton's repeated lies about Obama on at least four major issues (not character stuff, but ISSUES). I asked you to be clear about this if you were going to keep saying they're exactly the same wrt politics and you have not only not done that but you have continued to repeat the same BS meme. Do I "care to answer the question?" Sure, I'll answer it. For the third time. "If Hillary had made an error in her biography" would I hammer her for it? No. For the third time. And it's not an "if." She has made errors which some would regard to be far more serious (saying she was under sniper fire, saying Chelsea was across the street from the WTC on 9/11) and I said YESTERDAY (before you said nobody from the Obama camp would) that I didn't care about that stuff. I care about the stuff I keep posting about and you keep ignoring because it doesn't fit neatly into your "all politicians are the same" thing. And I don't believe I've defended Obama when he's been wrong either. Nor do I believe he's never wrong. I think he was very wrong not to vote against Bush's Iran thing (opting instead to keep campaigning rather than cast a difficult vote). And I've disagreed with some of his votes too. Do I think he could be better on the campaign trail, especially in adhering to his self-decribed new brand of politics? Sure. I think anyone could be better at just about anything, but I think he's been damn good at it. And I don't regard anything about the Wright thing to have been mishandled by him, amazingly. I think it hurts him and I understand why it would, but I think his handling of it has been masterful, sincere and impressive. Obama's a human being, he isn't perfect. Same with Hillary. That's why I don't hammer either of them on getting details of biography wrong. (Even something as big as whether or not you were shot at or whether or not your daughter was close enough to 9/11 to have died there.) I hammer Hillary on lying to the American people about Barack's record. That's what I hammer her on, that's what I hate her for, that's why I'll never vote for her and that's the thing that you still refuse to answer even while you seem to have time to answer everything else.
your evidence? Is everyone who likes McCain a cult member? Why not? It's the most insulting and repetitive attack currently going in D&D. And there's no evidence for it, though it gets a lot of Limbaugh type airplay. Again, what's the evidence? Anyone saying Obama is flawless? Haven't seen it. Anyone saying his poop doesn't stink? Haven't seen it. Anyone saying they agree with everything Obama says and everything he ever will say? Yeah, haven't seen a single instance of that either. Newsflash: for some of us, he strikes us as the best candidate. We like him more than we don't like him. People have similar feelings for other candidates, as per any freaking election. ymc, you're a cult member. There, wasn't that a great discussion?
it really is, that's why I tend to fly off the handle everytime i see it. as if we can't think critically, and the irony is it usually comes from people who've supported bush every step of the way (not saying this about ymc)
Well, I didn't say every Obama supporter is like a cult member. Some of them are, especially those who said they would vote for Bush before they would vote for Hillary.
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