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[NYT] Is Capitalism Killing Conservatism?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rocketsjudoka, May 9, 2021.

  1. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I think this is a very interesting and timely Op-Ed that touches on a lot of things that we've been debating here recently. I've frequently said that the Right doesn't even know what it's fighting for anymore and this tension between we Capitalism and traditional values is at the heart of it.

    Consider how many corporations are acting "woke" in regard to things like GA's Voting Law and the backlash from Republicans. We see them now spouting anti-corporate rhetoric like they were Bernie Sanders or AOC. Anyone who believes that corporations championing things like BLM, Marriage Equality or Voting Rights are doing so out of some actual sense of "wokeness" I think you might as well believe that Axe Body Spray can really make you more attractive to women. This is very clearly them reading the market and in the case of MLB, NBA and NFL them reading where their talent is. These are decisions being made with the bottomline.

    If anything this is the largest sign that social conservatives are losing the culture war. Capitalism isn't a moral philosophy and as such the Invisible Hand is encouraging marketing to where the culture is heading. Not where it was.

    Also important to note that author isn't arguing this as a good thing and isn't a liberal. At the end of the Op-Ed he has some pretty scathing criticism of Liberals.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/08/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

    OPINION
    ROSS DOUTHAT

    Is Capitalism Killing Conservatism?

    The report on Wednesday that U.S. birthrates fell to a record low in 2020 was expected but still grim. On Twitter the news was greeted, characteristically, by conservative laments and liberal comments implying that it’s mostly conservatism’s fault — because American capitalism allegedly makes parenthood unaffordable, work-life balance impossible and atomization inevitable.


    This is a specific version of a longstanding argument about the tensions between traditionalism and capitalism, which seems especially relevant now that the right doesn’t know what it’s conserving anymore.

    In a recent essay for New York Magazine, for instance, Eric Levitz argues that the social trends American conservatives most dislike, the rise of expressive individualism and the decline of religion, marriage and the family, are driven by socioeconomic forces the right’s free-market doctrines actively encourage. “America’s moral traditionalists are wedded to an economic system that is radically anti-traditional,” he writes, and “Republicans can neither wage war on capitalism nor make peace with its social implications.”

    This argument is intuitively compelling. But the historical record is more complex. If the anti-traditional churn of capitalism inevitably doomed religious practice, communal associations or the institution of marriage, you would expect those things to simply decline with rapid growth and swift technological change. Imagine, basically, a Tocquevillian early-America of sturdy families, thriving civic life and full-to-bursting pews giving way, through industrialization and suburbanization, to an ever-more-individualistic society.

    But that’s not exactly what you see. Instead, as Lyman Stone points out in a recent report for the American Enterprise Institute (where I am a visiting fellow), the Tocquevillian utopia didn’t really yet exist when Alexis de Tocqueville was visiting America in the 1830s. Instead the growth of American associational life largely happened during the Industrial Revolution. The rise of fraternal societies is a late-19th- and early-20th-century phenomenon. Membership in religious bodies rises across the hyper-capitalist Gilded Age. The share of Americans who married before age 35 stayed remarkably stable from the 1890s till the 1960s, through booms and depressions and drastic economic change.

    This suggests that social conservatism can be undermined by economic dynamism, but also respond dynamically in its turn — through a constant “reinvention of tradition,” you might say, manifested in religious revival, new forms of association, new models of courtship, even as older forms pass away.

    It’s only after the 1960s that this conservative reinvention seems to fail, with churches dividing, families failing, associational life dissolving. And capitalist values, the economic and sexual individualism of the neoliberal age, clearly play some role in this change.

    But strikingly, after the 1960s economic dynamism also diminishes, as productivity growth drops and economic growth decelerates. So it can’t just be capitalist churn undoing conservatism, exactly, if economic stagnation and social decay go hand in hand.

    One small example: Rates of geographic mobility in the United States, which you could interpret as a measure of how capitalism uproots people from their communities, have declined over the last few decades. But this hasn’t somehow preserved rural traditionalism. Quite the opposite: Instead of a rooted and religious heartland, you have more addiction, suicide and anomie.

    Or a larger example: Western European nations do more to tame capitalism’s Darwinian side than America, with more regulation and family supports and welfare-state protections. Are their societies more fecund or religious? No, their economic stagnation and demographic decline have often been deeper than our own.

    So it’s not that capitalist dynamism inevitably dissolves conservative habits. It’s more that the wealth this dynamism piles up, the liberty it enables and the technological distractions it invents, let people live more individualistically — at first happily, with time perhaps less so — in ways that eventually undermine conservatism and dynamism together. At which point the peril isn’t markets red in tooth and claw, but a capitalist endgame that resembles Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World,” with a rich and technologically proficient world turning sterile and dystopian.

    Which actually makes the challenge for conservatives much tougher. If the decay of faith or family were really a simple matter of “too much capitalism” you could imagine a right that eventually got over its rugged individualism and chose redistribution and sustainability instead. But one can favor moves in that direction — social conservatives should spend more on families — and still see that they aren’t sufficient, that conservatives actually need to somehow jump-start a lot of forms of dynamism all together, in a way that’s hard for an old, rich and decadent society to do.

    But let’s not let liberals off the hook. If capitalist churn isn’t what it used to be, if taming its excesses in the style of France or Sweden isn’t enough to restore family and community, if the combination of welfare-state liberalism and personal emancipation trends toward a Huxleyan dystopia, do liberals have any resources besides complaints about capitalism that might help pull us off that course?

    Because if conservatism’s responses are incoherent and insufficient, I fear that liberalism has no response at all.
     
  2. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost be kind. be brave.
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    Eric Weinstein's quote about this is one of my favorite.

    "No one foresaw Capitalism being killed by its son, Technology".

    Moreover, no one knows what to do about it.
     
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  3. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Thank you Elon !
    People who work and make money deserve their fruits of their labor

    lazy suckers who freeload all day on the hard work of others suck and belong in North Korean
    Or another basketball site
     
    #3 tinman, May 9, 2021
    Last edited: May 9, 2021
  4. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Use technology to make magic internet coins.
     
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  5. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    To the moon!
     
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  6. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    It's weird to open up an op/Ed to an opinion he later shoots down. Low birthrates are also endemic in Western Europe and Japan. What they have in common isn't economic ideologues but rather crippling indebtedness and negative bearing interest rates.

    Our system is deeply tied to inflation. Tech and low birthrates are going to cook us as Boomers cash out of the Ponzi scheme and the late bloomers are left holding the bag.

    It doesn't mean capitalism has failed, though we failed it big time decade after decade. People are rallying behind Central Banks without understanding why or what they're doing

    Communism's main premise is that it will naturally kick in once capitalism has created all it can create and the masses rise up to consolidate all wealth. If that's the case, have we reached the peak in human ingenuity and determination?
     
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  7. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    You aren't funny.
     
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    There certainly are warning signs but I'm not sure we've reached the peak in human ingenuity and determination but still have hope that we can innovate our way out of things.
     
  9. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Eh, not doing much for me. Launches with a few axiomatic assertions I'm not sure I even accept. That American conservatism is about traditionalism, and traditionalism is about protecting religion, marriage, and family. That capitalism is anti-traditionalist. I guess I'd need to read the other article he links to.
     
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  10. Agent94

    Agent94 Member

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    Hmmm, what else happened in the 60s? Birth control. Its an odd thesis to blame the decline of birth rates and "conservative" values on late stage capitalism when there is an obvious reason why birth rates and family values have changed so much since 60s.
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Thats nonsense though. Competition and communication regulations have been around for 100s of years. The Sherman antitrust act passed in 1890. Lots of people have had lots of ideas in this area.

    We haven't tried them, for inherently predictable reasons.

    As for Ross Doithat this is like installment #3485 of his public reckoning that the conservative ideological project he devoted his life to tuened out to be a giant fraud and had very few good faith adherents. The much more Occam story than his proposition here is that it was always such.
     
    #11 SamFisher, May 10, 2021
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
  12. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I'm sure birthrates started changing long before the sixties. The decline of the family farm is a big factor in declining birthrates.

    People needed kids to work. This, education, and women"s rights are big factors in declining birthrates
     

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