Bucks get the best player of the deal so they win imo. I could see the players NY got helping their team somewhat, but they're still overpriced scrubs.
Bucks gave the best player in the deal, and the worst. Isaih, I have never been a fan nor have I ever liked you, but man you have remade the Knicks in a hurry and you made them a contender!
I don't believe the Bucks gave away their best player, imo their best player is Redd and their second best player is Mason, and in a few years Ford will be up there. On the other side, great move by the Knicks, Thomas will complement Marbury will in the athletic sense and he can also step back and hit the 3. Not too sure about Mohammed but then again the East is weak in the big man department Atlant just maybe getting more than they bargained for, trying to the next Bulls, not a good thing.
I disagree that the Bucks got the best player. I think Tim Thomas and Van Horn are about equal when you way their pros versus their cons, especially considering that Van Horn has 100% reached his ceiling. There is no chance he can give you anything more. Tim Thomas has probably reached the ceiling he's set for himself, but he could break through it if he ever wanted to. The sky is the limit for him potential wise. As to he and Mohammed being over-priced scrubs, when I think scrubs I think 10th-12th spots on a roster. Both of these guys are contributors who could be starters on a great deal of teams. I wouldn't disagree that they're over-priced, but I think the term scrub is being used a bit too lightly in this instance. And as far as being over-priced goes, Dikembe Mutombo is probably the only person in the league more over-priced than Van Horn.
Interesting trade. I understand why the Hawks do it, to clear cap space. And I understand why the Knicks do it, to get more athletic, but have no idea why the Bucks do it. Do they gain anything here? I like what the Knicks did here. They wanted to get more athletic and they did just that. They also are amassing talent. They gave out Doleac and KVH and got back Thomas and Mohammed. I would imagine if you asked GMs around the league which players have more value in trades it would be Thomas and Mohammed. So at the worst, the Knicks have ammased more tradable talent for the future. I think Mohammed is very key to the Knicks as they needed insurance this summer in case Kurt Thomas leaves. This gives the Knicks another 4/5 guy that can rebound. Thomas gives the Knicks the athletic 3 they were looking for. They could have had Darius Miles. Thomas is a better fit. He should work well for the Knicks. I am not sure why the Bucks do this deal. Is KVH's contract better than Thomas'? What does KVH bring to the Bucks that Thomas did not? Better outside shot? Someone help me out here.
I remember how upset the board was in effectively trading positions with the Bucks with them getting Joel Przybilla and us getting Jason Collier. Well, Collier is gone but look at the Prz: "Przybilla, in his fourth year, appeared in only five games for the Bucks this season, scoring one point." The Rockets had other choices, but at the time, everybody was mad we didn't take Pryzz. Well, well, well.
For what it is worth...here is ESPN Insider Chad Ford's take. It at least shed some insight into why the Bucks made the move. Putting VH at the 4 and Mason at the 3. It also says that the move will shave $14 million off their cap for the summer of 2005. How is that possible? BTW, Ford's ascetion that the Hawks might go after Kenyon Martin this summer is a joke. Why the hell would they do that if they already had SAR? If they were going to go after Martin they might as well should have kept SAR and then when his contract was up after next season sign him to a lesser deal. Martin makes NO SENSE in Atlanta! Knicks in position to compete in East By Chad Ford, ESPN Insider LOS ANGELES -- Maybe Isiah Thomas knows what he's doing, after all. Sunday's trade that shipped Keith Van Horn to the Bucks and Michael Doleac to the Hawks for Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed should put the Knicks in a position to seriously compete in the East. After taking over what appeared to be one of the worst jumbles of mismatched talent and excessive contracts in the NBA, Isiah has, in the course of two months, made three trades and replaced nine players on the Knicks roster. The resulting makeover would make the Fab Five proud. Call it hip eye for the queer team. Chances are he's not done. Rumors swirled here at All-Star weekend that Isiah was considering swapping Shandon Anderson for Ruben Patterson. He also is shopping Othella Harrington, Frank Williams and Michael Sweetney hard. Scott Layden must be getting tired just keeping up with the transaction reports. After casting a skeptical eye at Isiah's hire and his first two trades, it's pretty tough not to be impressed. Thomas and Mohammed aren't the players that Stephon Marbury or even Penny Hardaway are, but they're the perfect complement to a backcourt of Marbury, Hardaway and Allan Houston and the blue-collar front court of Kurt Thomas and Dikembe Mutombo. After pulling off the Marbury miracle, the main critique was that Isiah had boxed himself in. He used up his expiring contracts and draft picks to land Marbury -- but was it enough? The answer, of course, was no. But with Thomas and Mohammed, the Knicks suddenly appear to have the pieces they need to compete in the East. Tim Thomas is far from a superstar, but as a fourth option, he's the perfect fit on the Knicks. He's young (he turns 27 in 10 days), tall and athletic. He can run the floor and has turned himself into a decent defender the past year. He'll never average 20 points or 10 boards a game, but on the squad the Knicks assembled, he doesn't have to. Mohammed is another big body -- something the team needs as Mutombo nears his 80th birthday. Here's the other thing about the three trades Isiah's made. Each one also has been pretty good for the other team making the trade. Not sure how that's possible given the Knicks' current roster, but it's true. The Moochie Norris for Clarence Weatherspoon trade was a wash. The Marbury trade gave the Suns the ability to get far enough under the cap to make a run at a top free agent along with two top young international prospects and an extra draft pick. It's tough to argue with the Suns' decision to pull the trigger. This latest trade also works for the Bucks and the Hawks. Milwaukee is one of the surprise stories of the first half, but it needed another guy to pick up some of the scoring load. Van Horn is having a good season and is capable of averaging 20 and 8 on the Bucks, which is a nice upgrade over the 14 and 5 that Thomas provided on a nightly basis. The move also allows them to reinsert Desmond Mason into the starting five and move Van Horn to the four. The team also shaves roughly $14 million off their cap for the summer of 2005 giving them around $25 million in cap room to play with that season. While Van Horn isn't the defender that Thomas is, he's a better scorer, and his offensive rebounding should make the Bucks an even tougher match-up in the second half. The Hawks' interest is in getting cap room. By swapping Mohammed for Doleac and Joel Przybilla, the team will clear another five million in cap room next summer. That should put them second to only the Jazz with roughly $20 million in cap space to make a run at some top free agents. While it's highly doubtful that the Hawks have enough juice to lure Kobe Bryant, don't be surprised to see them make a major run at a guy like Kenyon Martin this summer.
ATL can offer money where few (Utah and ???) can. But, who will take it? Look at Chicago. I believe...the blueprint when you have no discernible star or leader is to trade for TALENT. When a team is winning, creating a buzz, better players flock to that team 'as the last piece', or nearly so. Atlanta will have a bunch of SJax'. Nice enough players, but so what. Without a Duncan SJax is so-so. And ATL;s a no-no in the springtime, when reps are made.
I think the trade makes New York's roster sexier if not any better. Fans are just going to like Tim Thomas better. But, even as a lateral move, it was something that Isiah had to do for the sake of his team's chemistry. Given the Marbury-KVH history (and assuming the steady progress of Marbury's immaturity), you don't want those 2 to have to keep playing together. And, maybe Tim Thomas will actually be able to realize some of that potential he was supposed to have with a change of scenery. Next move for New York should be for Kenny Thomas and Etan Thomas. Then they'd have a monopoly on Thomases in the league.
I agree that no one's going to line up for ATL cash. Zero fan interest, a lame duck ownership situation, a coach that's likely gone at the end of the season, no pieces to build around, nothing. I'll note that this could change if Doc Rivers is brought in as GM/Coach this summer. The deal is good from NY's end, since it makes the roster more suited for a Starbury-run uptempo team. They had 3 jumpshooters, Kurt Thomas, and Steph. Now they have a jumpshooter, Steph and guys that can rebound and get up court in decent time. Downsides for the Knicks would be the loss of Marbury's best P&R partner (Doleac) and the fact that the NY media burns underachievers like Tim Thomas (who will likely be starting - a role that didn't last so long in Mil). KVH's lack of defense will hurt Milwaukee as much as his scooring may help them, IMHO. Evan
Ford is neglecting a key factor...the Bucks have shaved the $14m only if Van Horn does not take his $15.7m 2005-06 Player Option. Fat chance of that happening. Van Horn is a small upgrade over Toni Kukoc who does fairly well in the Bucks offense. Is a Van Horn - Mason forward combination that much better than a Thomas - Mason combination? Maybe Tim Thomas plays a lot weaker an EC PF than what I am recalling. FWIW, Van Horn makes about $2m/year mnore than Thomas and both contracts end in 2006. I guess Isiah had to make the move and better to make all of the moves now than in the summer after the Lottery and expansion drafts. Something tells me the Knicks roster will contain a whole lot of new faces between now and the 2004-05 season tipoff.
Someone already made the point that Isiah is busy dumping white boys from the roster. Are there any left for the Knicks? Isn't there a secret regulation stating that each team must carry a token white boy on the roster? I can understand where he's coming from. The mean streets of Chicago. He surrounds himself with those he trusts, so I'm not trying to make an issue of this. It's just so glaringly obvious. By the same reasoning, there are many teams (they won't admit it) that go after white players because, well, let's face it, there are more than a few people out there who won't watch the NBA because they think they won't see white guys. (I try to point out the European Invasion to the social conservatives but I think this doesn't count for much, to them, because these aren't the white guy stiffs they rooted for at the college level.) OK, worthless speculation aside, you knew KVH was a goner from the moment Isiah stepped in there. Starbury and KVH = no way.
