Nobody will ever convince me that Phil Jackson is a good coach until he coaches a mediocre team that doesn't contain one or two of the best players in the league. Come on... Jordan and the Bulls, Shaq and Kobe of the Lakers... taking these teams to the promise land was not really all that much of an accomplishment. He will have to actually do something on a team that lacks superior talent before I give him any credit as the kind of coach your are lauding him to be. You can say that he took a team that wasn't winning (Bulls, Lakers) and made them win, but the fact is, the guy was coaching teams that had one of the top 3, or the best player in the league on them at the time. That he happened to be the coach when Jordan and Shaq (and maybe Kobe... jury's still out) peaked career-wise was simply good fortune (or planned fortune, doesn't really matter) on his part. This is like saying that Rudy is a great coach just because he lead us to two championships behind Olajuwon. Olajuwon was the best player in the league, so I don't think that is necessarily the reason why Rudy is an awesome coach. Rudy is awesome because of what he did with the Rockets since Dream's play has dropped off. That is the true test of a coach, and that is a test that Phil Jackson has yet to face. ------------------ Give me ambiguity or give me something else. [This message has been edited by RunninRaven (edited May 22, 2001).]
He didn't do that bad that year Jordan was out and he was stuck with Pippen as the "leader" of the team. ------------------ I refuse to use smiley's in my posts, you'll just have to figure out how serious I am on your own...
Certainly this is true, BGM, but he did not do well enough when he was Jordan-less to impress upon me that he is a spectacular coach. The Bulls weren't bad, but they weren't that great, and Phil didn't really have enough time to decide whether or not to send Quitten packing... he kept him as the centerpiece for one season to see if he could handle it, and the next season Jordan came back. I am not saying in this thread that he is a bad coach. A bad coach would have found a way to lose with Jordan and Shaq and Kobe, but he is not the genuis, zen master coach that the media, Laker fans, and Bull fans make him out to be (generally). ------------------ Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
Screw that freakin b*stard jackass Jackson GOD I HATE HIS ASS!!!!! If he wanted to be great he would have taken the Nets job instead of meditating like a p***y in his jacked up ranch. He waited for the Laker job to open up instead of being a man and accepting the Nets job. And obviously gettinbranded, you are the one that cares what Cat thinks since you are the one trying to change his mind. Why the hell do you care about that Jackass anyways. Worry about your pathetic Bulls you little piece of garbage ------------------
"He didn't do that bad that year Jordan was out and he was stuck with Pippen as the "leader" of the team." --But he didn't win a championship that year either. --As I said in my earlier post, and yes I was being sarcastic, Jackson is good, but I'd really like to see him coach a team without the best player(s) in the on it. I could be wrong, but I think it would be a very 'enlightening' experience for the zen master. Much like Pat Riley's time away from the Showtime Lakers. ------------------
stevo: that's a good reversal on the asterisk citation!! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils.
i am sorry, but how is george karl a great coach and phil jackson is not? he coached a "mediocre" team to respectability and jackson did not? that's kind of a questionable way to judge greatness. karl hasn't, to my recollection, won anything in the nba. hell, two of his FIRST SEEDED TEAMS got send out FIRST ROUND in the playoffs. that sound like a great coach to you? jackson on the other hand, has won a ring 8 times out of his 10 seasons coaching. jordan never won anything without jackson. once phil started coaching him the bulls became unstoppable. kobe and shaq were being swept out of the playoffs before jackson. now that he is in la the lakers look to be unstoppable as well. coincidence? luck? partially of course, but i adhere to the philosophy that people make their own luck, and i would guess that phil jackson follows a philosophy similar to mine. ------------------
Head coaches in today's NBA are not about X's and O's. They are about making their stars happy. Phil Jackson is a great NBA coach, but that doesn't mean he is a great coach. Most great college coaches (see Pitino) can't be great NBA coaches and vica-versa. Also you can say Phil has used the best players to win his championships but so has every other coach. Who was the last NBA championship team to not have the NBA's best player on that team. THe last I can think of is posibly the Bad Boy Pistons, although I'm sure you could make a case for Isiah. Phil does his job and does it well. He is fortunate to have the teams (and players) he has had, but that's life. Some people have an easier road than others.
That Bulls team would have been fine with whomever you inserted into the head coaching suit. Tex knew/knows the triangle, Jackson had little to do with that. I do think Jackson has had some success in making the LA team respect the fact that they must play in a system as a team unit, and to give them some discipline. But honestly, Jackson has had 4 of the best players in the modern era on his two championship teams. THAT is what carried him to 7 titles. ------------------ My doctor says I am bipolar. I am going to get a second opinion. I have never had intimate desires for polar bears.
gotta frigid girlfriend, eh? That would make me grumpy too... ------------------ [This message has been edited by gettinbranded (edited May 22, 2001).]
Nope. It's what he did with those players. Doug Collins, Del Harris couldn't do what Jackson did...and when did coaching a bad team to perfection become the mark of a great coach? That's like saying "Of course Jordan is a superstar. I'd be one too if I had 3% body fat, unseen before hand-eye coordination, was 6'6" and had long arms and quick twitch muscles." Many players have come along with the tools...very few become stars. Many coaches have the tools (dunleavy) but lack the other stuff. Phil would have won with Portland if he had been there, and he would probably win with San An... ------------------ [This message has been edited by gettinbranded (edited May 22, 2001).]
I think the most you can say about Jackson is that he may be a better coach than Popovich. If Jackson was coaching the Spurs and Popovich the Lakers, I could see the Spurs having a better time in the series -- mainly because if Jackson were coaching the Spurs, Derek Anderson wouldn't have gotten injured, because Jackson's teams rarely have to deal with injury in the playoffs.
When Del Harris was coaching the Lakers, Kobe was just a teen-ager, and Shaq was focussing on his acting/rapping careers. Those two now have a bit more experience in the NBA, and I think that's the largest difference. Phil Jackson is a coach who's good enough to make a talented team with the most dominant player in the league live up to its potential and win a championship. I doubt he's good enough to take a team from the rebuilding stages and mold it into a championship contender. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
He even said himself that he couldn't and wouldn't deal with that type of team. He had to "inherit" a great team, or he wouldn't coach. ------------------ My doctor says I am bipolar. I am going to get a second opinion. I have never had intimate desires for polar bears.
"That Bulls team would have been fine with whomever you inserted into the head coaching suit. Tex knew/knows the triangle, Jackson had little to do with that." Not true. Tex was there for the Stan Albeck and Doug Collins regime, and neither coach sniffed at the Triangle. Phil comes in, demands they use it, and convinces the most head-strong player in the league to bow down and run a 50-year old offense. Michael didn't like it, he doesn't like the offense to this day, but he used it. Tex could not convince him to do it on his own, and no other coach could. Phil Jackson is honest. This is why he gets in trouble, this is why he sounds/is arrogant, and this is why players like him. Growing up with the fear of God in you in North Dakota will have you thinking twice about placating superstars or lying to anyone. So any other head coach in the league could waltz in, point at the 80-year old, and say "we're with him"? Hardly. How unstoppable would the Rockets be with the Triangle? Francis roaming the baselines, Cat bouncing off screens, Bullard spotting up? Easy shots for every chump that Rudy sends out there. But will Rudy try it? Will he take a training camp and try and win over his players with an equal-opportunity offense that will make his best players TWICE as unguardable? No way. Keep the stars happy, isolate them on one side, go from there. Contrary to popular belief, Phil could give a flux about what his superstars think. MJ thought he was nuts until 1996 or so. Kobe hated him for being so harsh. Phil waltzed into his first Laker training camp and told the media he was unhappy with Shaquille's weight. Glen Rice? My way or the highway. Horace Grant? Phil's whipping boy early on. Toni Kukoc? Phil still has him tossing and turning at night. Some of you need to scope out some game tapes of the Bulls in 1989, or the Lakers in 1999. Pretty sad basketball. On top of that...talent-wise, this is the worst Laker team in five years. Talent-wise, the Lakers have gone downhill since 1996-97. No Campbell, Rice, EJ, Scott, NVE, Battie (don't laugh, he coulda helped), Jon Barry, Ceballos, George McCloud, Sean Rooks, or Ruben Patterson. Brian Shaw is a 13th man who can't get off the IR in Portland during the Lockout season. The next year he's putting the Blazers away in the fourth quarter of a Game 7. As a 7th man. This isn't luck, and this isn't Shaq. This is about belief, and faith, and touches. When you touch the ball in most every possession, and have a role in the offense without bringing the rock up or even shooting it, you are more comfortable late in the game when the defense focuses on one end of the offense, the Triangle reacts and you end up with the ball in your hands. Steve Kerr, on the Lakers right now, would be perfect. In San Antonio, there is 10-12 feet of space between him and Tim Duncan on the kick-out. In the Triangle, there is 15-18; and it isn't a normal 'kick-out.' Phil will end up getting his 10th ring this year. This isn't luck, because luck has a nasty habit of running out (Scott Williams, Sam I Am). I implore all of you to check out tapes of the Lakers and Bulls before he took over, and understand that their collective growth into champions wasn't exactly a 12-man decision made irrespective of the coaching staff. ------------------
The team with the best player wins. It was like that before Phil Jackson, it was like that when he and Jordan left, it was like that when Jackson came back, and it will probably be like that when he leaves for good. It has nothing to do with the stupid triangle. Look what the Mavs did with the oh-so-great triangle. Looks real good now when the Bulls are running it too. What, with the triangle, the Bulls win 15 games, without out it...12? Damn, what an offense. It's making Elton Brand such a better player, and it's making Bryce Drew DANGEROUS. What are Rudy and the Rockets thinking?
Kelly: you also need a team that BELIEVES in the offense, and talent to do so successfully. Of course the Bulls aren't going to succeed. Floyd doesn't even want to run the offense and it's too complicated for players that young and green. And yes, great players do help win championships. The difference with Phil is he helps mold them, and one thing he does that many people fail to mention, is get the role players, to play their respective roles so well. If that wasn't true, what ever happened to the Steve Kerr's and Toni Kukoc's when they left Chicago. Jordan did help make the better but Phil did also. Remember when people sneered at the Bulls for trading a young Charles Oakley away for Bill Cartwright? Bill wouldn't make the earth move but he was an important player in that offense-as is the other 4 players on the floor. Phil is not the greatest ever but he is a very good coach, and has the rings. He helped mold Jordan, and he's doing it with Kobe and Shaq...and when players believe they win. They believe in Phil ------------------ "She's what I call a pitching wedge. She looks good from about 150 yards away" -Pete Sampras when asked about Barbara Streisand
one thing he does that many people fail to mention, is get the role players, to play their respective roles so well. If that wasn't true, what ever happened to the Steve Kerr's and Toni Kukoc's when they left Chicago. All championship teams have good role players that couldn't do as well for other teams. That's not unique to Phil Jackson. You could just as easily say what happened to Kenny Smith after he won 2 rings with the Rockets -- he was out of the league. What happened to Jaren Jackson, who played a key role in the Spurs title -- he hasn't done anything since. Phil Jackson didn't invent the role player. He's got 2 of the best players in the league on his team -- bottom line.
Speaking of making role players live up to their potential, he did a heck of a job getting more out of Scottie Quitten than anyone else since. ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
