your mean this? <img src="http://bbs.smeggysmeg.com/images/schoolgirls.jpg"> glad I could help derail this thread.
JVG wants D to sink in like it did for J.Howard. It took a benching for him to realize it after years of playing losing basketball.
JVG didn't play his rookies in NY because they were rubbish, or did his rookies become rubbish because he totally neglected them? Seven years as head coach in NY is a long time, more than long enough to judge him by. That said, I agree that Novak isn't ready for big minutes yet. But that doesn't mean he won't benefit from small minutes -- and I don't care if his training costs us a win or two, as long as he is ready when the playoffs begin.
You are attempting to make a good point except it isn't working for you. Howard's numbers are only as good as they are because he has played a considerable amount of his minutes with 111 on the floor with him. And they are still not very good overall. He has had 2 games where the Rox managed to get a nice run going with him in the games. It's just a blip my friend, just a blip. Novak, meanwhile, has got scattered minutes, including substantial minutes where he was basically thrown in the fire during the Phoenix game. He's obviously a rookie and needs to learn a few things but at this stage in each of their respective careers, Novak cannot possibly hurt us more in the long run than Juwan will. You are comparing the very best that Juwan can give us to probably pretty close to the worst that Novak can give us. Any advantage that Juwan gives us over Novak defensively (which is still a huge net negative) and on the glass is negated when you go to the other end and Novak is throwing in the 3 ball while Juwan clunks from midrange. Novak has looked lost defensively. That was expected. But he's got to learn. The thing that was not expected is he has looked lost offensively with spacing the floor. Just a world of difference between his offensive play in the preseason and regular season. I have a funny feeling this has a lot to do with teams not really bringing out their full defensive packages in the preseason and also with our team keeping our offensive sets very basic. It sure seemed like it was easy for McGrady to dribble drive to the bucket, and throw it out to Novak in preseason and now that is completely shut down and Novak is having to figure out how to get open some other way. But it should come. I am not in favor of giving Novak big minutes right now. But I am in favor of giving Novak minutes instead of Juwan, especially when 111 is out there along with Head/Alston and Battier. I think that would be a kicking offensive lineup. Give Novak Juwan's minutes with that lineup and his +/- numbers surpass Juwan's right now and Juwan's +/- numbers sink further into the abyss.
That's not the case that Novak suffers from the disadvantage of playing without 1-11, in fact the lineup he's been a part of the most features the four starters and him. It's been infrequent that he's been on the floor without at least one of the big two next to him - essentiallly about hte same ratio as Juwan. Anyway, you don't even have to look at +/-. His piss poor rebounding (3! in 46 minutes, for a PF. That makes Juwan look like Michael Cage) and heinous defensive stats (I wish Durvasa would post his defensive stats updates - but essentially, other teams score at will on Novak, and I mean literally at will). Even Howard, (who I hate, and the stats hate) looks good by comparison. The guy looked lost, the stats say he's lost, not sure what else there is to say. He makes Juwan look good on defense and rebounding - that's incredible to me. I used to say "can't be any worse than Juwan" on defense. It turns out somebody can be.
Sorry, I haven't been tracking the defensive stats for a while now. Only have them for the first five games. I agree, Novak's defense is just pitiful. I remember that was my first impression of him in the first preseason game. He seemed to look better out there in subsequent games; maybe that was my mind playing tricks on me because I liked his shooting so much. At any rate, he's about as bad on defense as Ryan Bowen was on offense last year. That's bad. And I feel that defensively the PF plays a crucial role on this team; particularly when playing along side Yao.
I am not saying that Novak has been any good defensively. He hasn't. What I am saying is we are comparing the best of Juwan to the worst of Novak, a rookie that knows next to nothing about how to play in this league. And I am going to say that if we have to play Juwan 30 minutes a night, we aren't going very far. That's too many minutes for a player of his inability. He has no upside, he's already on the downside and sinking. Novak, on the other hand, still has upside as far as his maturity in this league goes. I think we should give him some minutes now and try to work out some of the kinks with him. He's probably never going to be a great defender, that's a given. He's probably never going to be a very good rebounder, that's a given. But we need his offensive game to open up the floor and since the regular season started we have not worked out the kinks of the offense with him on the floor. That needs to be done so at the very least, in a game during the playoffs, when it comes down to crunch time and we need one last basket to win the game, we can feel comfortable and confident bringing him in for one offensive set. Right now, the offense does not look good with him out there and it should. Because he has that skill. While at the same time, Juwan's offense has been pitiful, but he has managed to find a little soft spot here where he has got off a couple decent games and contributed to wins with his boards basically. Juwan IS NOT giving us anything defensively either. When he enters the game with 111, there is a HUGE dropoff from Hayes. And if he plays major minutes with Yao, he will jam up the offense because his defender will automatically double Yao. It's already happening man with Chuckie. What makes Chuckie better is he goes to the rim or otherwise if he winds up with the ball at midrange, he dumps it off to anybody else and we get a better shot. Juwan takes his 40% clothesline jumper and ignites the opponent's fast break. Yao and Juwan on the floor together are terrible. That's a given. Our defense suffers and our offense suffers. Yao and Novak on the floor together hurt us defensively overall about the same as Yao and Juwan, if Novak is given minutes. But offensively, when Novak gets unwound, we will be a superior unit to a unit with Juwan on the floor. I've seen too much of Howard over the last 2 years to be convinced after he pops a couple decent games that it will continue. You gotta look at the bigger picture. Juwan had a couple stellar games last year with 111 where he looked very good out there. But when you look at his +/- numbers playing alongside 111 over the course of a season or two, you can see that he is a proven negative to us. Why do you think that as bad as Novak has been that JVG started him against Phoenix instead of Juwan? Hey, Juwan is the favored "vet" player here and much more "proven". It was simply because JVG has seen the Juwan show against Phoenix before and he knows it doesn't work. He was more willing to plug in the wide eyed rookie than Juwan. Simply because he knows that Phoenix is too athletic and will fade off Juwan with another athletic body on Yao. It's really this simple. Novak went 2 for 5 against Phoenix. If.............he knocks down 2 of those 3 misses and goes 4 for 5 (which everyone here knows he is capable of doing, and will do at some point, and the difference between a miss and a make for a guy like Novak is a fingertip or a drop of prespiration on the ball), we are having the opposite conversation right now. He has played a grand total of 46 minutes while Juwan has played 240 minutes. Statistically, looking at the +/- numbers, we don't even have a large enough sampling to even come to a conclusion on Novak's impact. But we've got plenty of data on Juwan. Just another blip in an otherwise downward slide.
Looking at Novak's +/- stats with the few minutes he's gotten is ridiculous. Just go back to last year and see how bad howard's was.
Juwan does not have to play 30 minutes a night...that's why he's only playing 17 - which would be even fewer but for Hayes injury. We've got plenty of data on Juwan. And that's why Novak's ability to look even worse is so astounding. I don't have to look at plus/minus numbers to know that Novak is hurting the team when he's out there, even worse than Howard. His 2-5 btw was actually a 1-4 until a meaningless closing seconds bomb. If you're citing his abysmal phx performance as a reason to keep him around....that's crazy talk. His 2 three pointers were more than outweighed by the harm he did that game. I don't understand why you guys think explaining how Howard sucks changes this. I KNOW Howard sucks, I said it all summer - the fact is that Novak is even worse which is incredible. He's the anti-Chuck Hayes on the floor on a team where Chuck Hayes abilities (defense, rebounding) are critical to protect Yao, perhaps even more so than outside shooting. The same arguments that go against Juwan go even worse for Novak.
Dan Langhi could have produced for us, but he didn't learn other aspects of the game. Dan Langhi was the ultimate preseason player.
Yes of those great thin spot up three pointer shooters, how many of them were forwards? Forwards, you know those big guys expected to assist in protecting the paint? When he started in the Phoenix game, he was matched up against bloody friggin Shawn Marion. So what's the point of being a great spot up shooter when you're going to get beat up inside and give up a score, or fail to get a rebound and give up a score. Even if Novak makes half his 3's, how points will he give up on the defensive end? Reggie Miller, Jeff Hornaceck, Steve Kerr...all thing guys. All guards. Bullard, LaFreantz, Cliff Robinson, Padgett. All big men who can shoot 3's. All of them with a bit of thickness to them who can grab the occasional rebound. In 46 minutes of game play, Novak has grabbed a total of 3 rebounds. 3! In garbage time, you would think at least a couple more would bounce his way. Until Novak gains more girth than Michelle Kwan, he should not see any major minutes, unless it's a specific offensive situation, because frankly he just doesn't offer enough.
It seems like everyone forgot that Novak was a second round pick. Let's look at the other "early 2nd rounders" this season (picks 31-35): 31 James White- 0 games played, 0 mpg Soloman Jones- 11 games, 7.9 mpg 33 Paul Davis- 7 games, 5.1 mpg 34 PJ Tucker- 6 games, 3.6 mpg ----------------------------------------------- Average- 6 games, 4.15 mpg 32 Novak- 6 games, 7.7 mpg It's said that these teams are missing out on potential superstars....
You're exaggerating. As a rookie, Dirk was even skinnier than Novak and had less defence. If Nellie had your attitude, Dirk would have rotted on the bench. Now I am not saying that Novak has the potential to be as good as Dirk. (Dirk was quick and could create his own shot, for one thing.) But I do think Novak is worth an investment, with an eye towards the playoffs: teams will want to play lots of zone against us in order to stop Yao. And Novak could be our zone buster. I am not as worried about Novak's defence as some people seem to be. I'm sure he will learn. He is not the answer to every opposing PF, but he will be a useful option.
Cliff Robinson was also a second rounder. So was Gilbert Arenas. And Drazen Petrovic (look in the Hall of Fame) was a third rounder. So being a second rounder is not always bad.
Novak's D is horrible but that was always expected. The way I see it, he needs to stop passing and just shoot. Otherwise he's just sucking it up on both ends.
he looked so lost in tonight's game. even though it was crunch time and lucas was running the point, he's gotta have the "i'm the man attitude on offense." john lucas has that attitude and shows offensive prowess throwing up floaters and shooting threes on his time on the court.
