Notre Dame Priests upset about Obama's Invite to Speak because of Abortion

Pardon me if I sound like @ss here. The argument against abortion is the killing of innocents but we know for a fact that innocents, women and children, have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by the US military. The US military doesn't deliberately target them but they are collateral damage and have the misfortune of living in a place where the US miltary is trying to kill other people. It seems to me that if you are worried about innocent lives being lost because some people find them inconvenient that is somewhat imcompatible with supporting aggressive military responses. Since as we know there is no such thing as a truly surgical war and a more aggressive military will inevitably lead to more civillian deaths who inconveniately happen to be in the area of conflict.

 

That is true and the Vatican was opposed to the Iraq War. I think she is referring to the political Religious Right which is primarily Protestant. I think in someways the Catholic Church has been unfairly tarred with some of the excesses of the political Religious Right as a whole.

 

To be fair to Prostestants too many Protestant Churches also do a lot of social services.

 

It was a joke, and FYI most humor has it's roots in the truth.

DD

 

Thanks bobrek...I will definitely do that. I apologize if it seemed like I was making false assumptions about Catholics - I grew up in the southern Baptist church and mostly spout off about my experiences...I tried to tie in the Catholic thing because of the topic, but admit my ignorance. I've been to Catholic church services maybe a dozen times in my whole life, so I'm not knowledgeable. A lot of my extended family is Catholic and they are very rational when it comes to faith and politics. I often let my opinions on the Religious Right seep into threads where they're probably not warranted.

 

bobrek, I'm sure the Catholic Church denounces the killing of anyone, fetus or full-grown. After all, it's right there in the Ten Commandments: Thou shalt not kill.

However, can you see that Notre Dame is being disingenuous in supporting a man like George W. Bush, who was known for his executions while governor of Texas and who is (indirectly) responsible for thousands of deaths in Iraq, yet denouncing a man like Obama purely on his stance on a woman's right to choose?

Oh, and finalsbound was right: the Catholic Church has been teaching abstinence as a solution, rather than endorsing contraception. See link for details:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4081276.stm

Now, true, this article has more to do with contraception use in Africa to reduce the spread of AIDS, but the fact that the Pope considers the use of contraception to be a "breakdown in sexual morality" seems to indicate where his opinion lies in the matter. As long as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church believes that condoms actually "increase the problem" of AIDS, you will have trouble convincing people that the church is on the right path.

 

I said in my post that I was speaking in generalities, so what is the point you're trying to make? Don't agree? Post a counter-argument, rather than just rolling your eyes and copping an attitude. After all, it's Debate & Discussion.

 

My point was that of course the Catholic Church teaches abstinence. It is a core piece of the Catholic Church's belief system. Abstinence is the only way to prevent unplanned pregnancy (other than the physical inability to produce children), and STDs.

My suggestion to read up on the Catholic Faith was to understand the reasoning behind abstinence only.

 

Perhaps there would have been more of an outcry against George Bush had his commencement address come during or after the Iraq war. Also there were some protestation concerning Bush's selection in 2001:

"When Bush spoke in 2001 about the disintegration of the family, many graduates wore white arm bands to protest the selection."

I have yet to see Notre Dame "denounce" Obama. As far as I know, the President will still speak at their commencement.

 

You've really got a lot of inaccuracies and vitriol in your post. This is an issue close to my heart as a current ND student.
1) The Catholic Church's teaching on the death penalty isn't too hard to understand. It's not banned in the same way abortion is, because there is an element of justice in state sanctioned capital punishment. Here's a quick rundown on the subject by Avery Cardinal Dulles:

2) As many people have pointed out already, Bush spoke in May 2001, 4 months before 9/11 and 2 years before the Iraq war. It would be a little hard for the school to be held responsible for that, and once again, there is an element of justice present in war; sometimes even preemptive war (after Monday morning quarterbacking, it's evident that there was not enough proof to follow through with a war in Iraq.

3) It turns out the Pope was probably right on condoms and Africa, even a liberal seems to think so: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/27/AR2009032702825.html I'll quote for the lazy; "In a 2008 article in Science called "Reassessing HIV Prevention" 10 AIDS experts concluded that "consistent condom use has not reached a sufficiently high level, even after many years of widespread and often aggressive promotion, to produce a measurable slowing of new infections in the generalized epidemics of Sub-Saharan Africa." " So when the Pope, who was entrusted by Christ to help save the souls of humanity, is faced with options in Africa, why should he promote one that the Church is pretty adamant in teaching leads away from God?

4) Major said something about Catholics tending to vote Democratic. Wrong. They vote just like any other group of Americans; in 2004 the Results were such: Catholics Bush 52% Kerry 47%.

5) The decision was terribly imprudent, and the justifications for it have been just as abysmal, that it is to promote dialogue between the President and those of other faiths, yet the University has specifically shot down requests by professors to debate Obama. So in essence, there is no debate, and the move really is a smack to a large segment of the University's population and professors who have worked so hard to properly form and train Catholic students. Shoot, he didn't even contact the Bishop until the day he made the announcement.

6) In short, a Catholic institution has the duty to teach Catholic truths. When you think about it, the issue should be preeminent for Catholics, yet for a lot it's not. It's one thing to be pro-choice. It's quite another to say, I think a fetus is a child and that abortion unjustly ends the life of that child, I'm just not willing to step up to laws that say something different. At least being pro-choice makes sense logically. Father Jenkin's move just reinforces the idea of Mario Cuomo that it's ok to be privately pro-life and publicly pro-choice. It's just not the proper role of a Catholic institution which should be struggling to teach, lead, and govern towards the truth. Shoot even ASU wasn't going to honor Obama. And here we give him a doctorate of laws degree. It would have been perfectly fine to have him as a commencement speaker and not give him a degree. It's ok to have him come in and debate, or take part in some aspect of higher learning conducive to a search for truth. Just a terribly imprudent decision by a Catholic Institution.

 

Former almost molested Catholic here, but even I get sick of the whole priest issue being brought up. The ones that did it were a minority. I'm sure if I digged on the net enough for fat overweight mid-40s, early-50s white married with kids Fathers, I could find a few in the Austin region even. Would I make a generalization and lay blame on you as an innocent?

I guarantee you if given enough time and a big enough population, you're bound to have a small minority of criminals that'll fit with almost any demographic.

Blaming Catholics for wars or any religion in general is a bit asinine as well. Wars existed before religion. Wars would continue to exist if religion never existed. Any motives for war to begin with, may have been done in the name of religion, but not by its divine practice. The Catholic Church is imperfect. The people that follow the church are imperfect. Mankind can't help being imperfect. However I support the idea that God is perfect.

I don't fault anybody for trying to make sense of themselves or the world we live in. You disagree with it. That's fine. Just don't be an ass-hole about it.

 

Why randomly pick 2004 as your evidence? In 2008, 2000, 1996, and 1992, Catholic voters voted for the Democrat over the Republican.

 

Probably because it directly contradicts your statement.

 

So, to summarize, killing prisoners is ok, as long as the Catholic church says it is? "Thou shalt not kill...unless they really reserve it, according to the Pope"? I must have missed that scripture.

Okay, I'll let ND slide on the war. But this was long after GWB had gained the reputation as an executioner on a massive scale at the state level.

Amazing how you changed "may be" (the authors words) into "probably". Not nearly the same thing.

Nice article, but you forgot to include the bit later where the author says "Don't misunderstand me; I am not anti-condom. All people should have full access to condoms, and condoms should always be a backup strategy for those who will not or cannot remain in a mutually faithful relationship. This was a key point in a 2004 "consensus statement" published and endorsed by some 150 global AIDS experts, including representatives the United Nations, World Health Organization and World Bank."

Nobody is saying condoms will solve the AIDS crisis in Africa. But they can be part of the solution. But the Pope is dismissing part of the solution out of hand, and telling an entire continent to just stop having sex. It's an unreasonable and unrealistic dogma. And people are dying because of it.

Because he was invited to speak at a commencement, not challenged to show up for a debate with a bunch of pious academics. He doesn't have to debate any more. He won back in November.

They're not teaching truth. They're teaching Catholic opinion.

 

Your post isn't even worth replying too, you're clearly just trolling. If you don't like Catholics fine, no one asked you to join. But a Catholic school should teach the Catholic version of truth, otherwise, is it a Catholic school or a school with a Catholic spirit. Since ND claims the former, I'll let you be the judge of the prudence of the situation.

 

This is a tangent here that probably deserves its own thread but what you are stating doesn't seem to support the Pope on condom use as what you state is that "consistent condom use has not reached a sufficiently high level." In that statement is the understanding that condoms do prevent AIDS but that they aren't used enough.

 

Just because someone vehemently disagrees with you doesn't mean they're trolling. I'm debating and discussing. Nowhere did I say that I don't like Catholics: I like them just fine. I agree that a Catholic school should teach the Catholic religion and Catholic beliefs. I just get a bit perturbed when they start calling them absolute truths. Your truth as a Catholic might be different than, say, Lutheran truth. Or Islamic truth.

The University offered the invitation and the President graciously accepted. Seems to me the thing to do would be find common ground to agree upon, rather than publicly vilify the President and the University for trying to meet halfway.

 

So you think Catholics should teach their religion but not call it absolute truth?
What would be the point of that? We believe this, but we don't think it to be absolute truth. Listen. matters of faith and morals, such as abortion, are doctrines the Church claims to be teaching the truth on. Other matters, it makes no claim. This is an issue that falls within their domain and the Church should teach what is truth. That's the point of a Catholic Institution. The one getting vilified in all this is Father Jenkins, not Obama.

I said you were trolling because your first response completely glossed over the part I wrote on the Catholic teaching on Capital Punishment, which a Catholic Institution would hopefully take into account when deciding on a speaker, and which people should educate themselves on when they throw out a red herring like you didn't complain about Bush speaking, which to wit he was also doing his duties as the elected governor of a state that had such laws.

I cited the article just to show that there is a large consensus that condom use is not working to stop AIDS in Africa, no matter how much proliferation and education has been going on. I cited the guy as a liberal. I think it's absurd to call the Pope's ban on them stupid when he's asking people to change the way they go about sex in Africa. That's only like his role as looking out for the soul's of humanity.

The rationale given by both Father Jenkins and Obama has been this will be a great moment to have a discourse between the two sides. Only there's no room for discourse in a commencement speech and the University is not providing any means for there to be a discourse.

 

Despite widespread attempts at proliferation. The article continues to discuss how African culture has not been receptive to their use. To summarize, they aren't being used; despite best efforts to get them to be used.

 

My problem was not that they had a few guys do it, but rather they tried to cover it up and transfered many away to avoid prosecution......certainly you can not blame the Church for the sins of the man who was representing them....it was a singular responsibility, but it was compounded BY THE CHURCH when they tried to cover it up.

Did you bother to read about the war against the Cathars? It was the Pope himself who ordered the army to wipe them out, it is not about name calling it is about history.

DD