Of course, it is more likely that we don't get Yao Ming than we trade Steve Francis. My own opinion on drafting Ming? Great. If we trade down? Great. Either way has advantages/disadvantages. And, either way, I'm frustrated with Steve. I was wondering why Steve didn't look excited about getting the #1 pick, ebullient, ecstatic, etc. Sure he knew in advance. Almost immediately he was talking up Cato and Chris Wilcox and we said, Don't look too much into that. (sigh) All will be well. One way or the other.
Well said Achebe. You pretty much summed up exactly how I feel about this "situation". I'm behind Steve as a player, but he can be replaced much more easily than an athleticly gifted 7'5" center.
A better question is why is Steve dissin' the Rockets franchise that has been so good to him?? BTW, Cat said he would prefer Odom. He isn't being a spoiled brat like Steve "allegedly" is.
I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if this has already been asked, but is there anyway we can get Odom or a solid, proven player, in a package deal with our #15 pick, #37 pick and a player or two?
By the way, if Francis really IS upset about this for personal reasons (such as air time, and publicity), then forget everything I said because he's selfish and spoiled. If Rudy thinks Ming is the real deal, he is the real deal. Rudy is a former player, he's played with an coached some talented big men, like Hakeem, and Ralph Sampson, Kevin Willis, Otis Thorpe, Charles Barkley, Othella Harrington, he knows what he's doing. And if Rice is healthy and has found his touch we're going to the playoffs. Rice is a star, the impact player that Francis and Mobley wants, and is capable of carrying a team for long stretches at a time. He is also a proven winner, and steps up in the playoffs and has a ring. What more can you want? A frontline of Cato/Ming, Rice, and Mo/Griffin is more then enough for our backcourt, and should = 50+ wins and a playoff berth.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, revisionist history. Hakeem at one point was just as selfish, if not MORE selfish then Francis. But he learned and matured, and 10 years later won a championship. It took him 10 years to learn that chemistry. <b>I would take Andre Miller in a second for francis. He may not be as athletic but he is a true team leader. </b> Andre Miller is getting heat for NOT being a team leader, that's why Lucas is hesitant to give him big money. I remember looking at a Cavs game and the broadcaster said he seemed distant and distracted, and he has had his share of tantrums. I wouldn't call him a "true team leader".
not unless you are willing to give up a decent player (i.e. mobley or griffin) another this is this: why is everyone having the jones for odom?? i could care less about his drug use. i'm not going to use that as an attack on the guy. basketball wise, the guy is pretty good i'll give you that much. but in his 3 years, his best season was just 17 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 assists. do y'all REALLY think he can post those same averages up on a houston team that runs it's offense through francis, cat, and griffin? sure you can say that odom is there to get the ball moving and to be our ball handler, but i would think he'd be frustrated going from a top 3 pick into another antonio daniels clone. and as for #8 and #12... like many, i agree that if caron butler slides to #8, then this trade would benefit even more. but who, realistically would be around at #8? amare stoudemire and qyntel woods---both of which fits the word 'project' more than 5th grade science. i don't have trouble w/ what cat says b/c he made it as diplomatic as possible from what i've heard and read. francis on the other hand, is just acting like my 3 year old niece. aside from this 'veteran experience' that odom has, what really makes him better than ming? 2000-2001 stats for ODOM: 17 points 8 rebounds and 5 assists on 46% shooting 2001-2002 stats for MING (in cba): 32 points 19 rebounds and 7 blocks and 3 assists on 72% shooting if we can get even HALF of ming's production it would be: 16 points 9 rebounds 3 blocks and 1.5 assists on say 48% shooting i think he would have more assists but that's just my opinion. conclusion: what makes odom so much better than ming? ming can and will have almost the same number of points, rebounds and assists by next season's end and will probably shoot a higher percentage. and by the way, we also get 3 blocks. a counterpoint is that odom can handle the ball and run the floor and find open shots for his teammates....buuuuut....isn't that what the FRANCHISE is for??
RocksM ...If the Clipps are looking into a deal for Odom in which they receive Eric Snow (according to ESPN Insider) than my guess is that the #15 and possibly the #37 or maybe the 15 and a player like KT might be enough to get Odom That being said, if those reports about a Snow-Odom swap are true, then the NBA GM's must see something negative about Odom that we don't.
Cleveland won't pay Andre Miller the max until next year because they want next year's cap space to swing trades. They played a dangerous game of publicly slamming Miller's leadership abilities; maybe he's not a vocal leader, but if his on-court demeanor is an example, I'll call him a leader. Cleveland was unearthing excuses to justify screwing this guy out of his paycheck. I don't know if Odom's value has dropped so much. But they want to move him, so they leaked this story about Eric Snow; now every team's calling the Clippers, thinking, "Hey, I can do better than that!" Their bidding starts low and the Clippers raise the ante, raise the ante, raise the ante, until they find what they want.
It's not that Odom is better <b> than </b> Ming, it's that Odom would be perfect for our needed 3 spot...I think Odom's numbers would be very similar here as well if he was healthy. About Ming, you can speculate that he will have half the numbers he had in the CBA or numbers similar to Odom, but he hasn't proven anything on the NBA level, especially dealing with 82 games next year. Odom has proven to be a good player with plenty of upside, the main questions are character related.
ptw1, did you see Magic and Bird play? They were about winning... first, last, and always. They didn't give a $h!t about "The Spotlight". It came to them because they were great players, and they WON.
Miller may have a BIBBY year once he leaves the Wasteland called Cleveland. U maybe right on the Odom deal. Rocket River
The things I heard on Miller were PRIOR to Cleveland's comments. He plays hard on the court, so does Francis. But Miller also has some issues off the court. I wouldn't call him anymore of a leader then Francis. I think people look at Miller's numbers from the outside and think he's the perfect leader, but having seen Cavs games and having heard things said, he's had problem himself. I think that Francis has bigger upside myself, and is just as much a leader as Miller. <i>basketball wise, the guy is pretty good i'll give you that much. but in his 3 years, his best season was just 17 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 assists. do y'all REALLY think he can post those same averages up on a houston team that runs it's offense through francis, cat, and griffin? </i> Those numbers are PERFECT with this team. He would be another cog in the machine, another guy that has to be stopped, and keeps the team running smoothly. His PPG would obviously go down, but his assist would go up, being able to pass to two post scorers, and two guards, his rebounding would dip a bit, but his steal would also go up. Also in case of an injury, or an offnight by someone, he could step in and take pressure off of the team. He is also a solid ball handler in limited action, like Pippen did for the Bulls. Seriously, if we were to face the Lakers, or Spurs, or especially the Kings or Mavs, in the first round, I would go to war with a team loaded with Francis, Mobley, Odom, Ming, Mo and Griffin. I'd take my chances!
you say odom is perfect for our 3 spot. odom can score, passes pretty well and can do the intangibles. you can also remember than we're in the west. w/o a big man, we're nothing. give me an example of a team that has made it to the WCF with a cato-like center. sorry but SF's are a dime a dozen. francis and mobley wants odom so bad is just because of favoritism for friends. Rudy and CD KNOWS that we need a 5 to compete in the west. and sure ming needs to get acclimated w/ the NBA, but why would be trade a pick (a pick that could land us a decent to damn good center) for a SF that won't lead us any further than the 1st round of the playoffs? IMO, ming can lead us past the 1st round. you need a center to be a contender in the west. sure odom has plenty of upside, but a 7'5" center that can shoot the lights out don't? and about ming not doing anything in the NBA, how about them college boys? sorry but you all can diss his CBA career and the CBA as a joke but no one dissed Dirk's euro career, nor Gasol's or Peja's. and how about them college boys? unless you can foresee the future, ALL of their skills are ALSO speculations. whose to say that a player like amare stoudemire won't be better than Drew Gooden? if you say ming haven't done anything in the NBA, i can also use that argument against the college guys. sure they play in the NCAA and that means they have 'more' experience. well you know what, that's a load of crap. for every jay williams, there will be countless others that couldn't even hold dan langhi's jock strap. sorry if i came off too strong but i'm just tired of people using odom's 'veteran experience' and how he has 'proved' himself as an argument to get him. veteran of 3 years and the way he prove himself in going from the leader of the team into their trade bait says a lot.
True. Hakeem had a much rockier start than Francis. In fact, I believe the history of how Rudy handled Hakeem will be the main reason why the Rockets keep Francis. Remember when Hakeem demanded a trade and "faked" an injury, Rudy was one of the few who had the foresight to try to work things out with him. He knew Hakeem had unique talent. Such is with Francis. If Rudy sees the potential in him, then he is more incline to teach rather than trade, even if Francis does play rather stupid at times.
It's true that some of us have been slighting Ming by saying the CBA sucks compared to the NCAA or the Euro Leagues. There is one difference though that can justify people speculating on how well other guys will do compared to Ming. College players go around and do private workouts with the teams that are interested in them. So do most Euro players. They work out against eachother so that teams can see who is better like when Amare destroyed Gooden. Ming only had one work out, in which I think Mobley said that all he proved is that he can run the floor without tripping over himself. It wasn't Yao's fualt that he he had a terrible schedule and was tired or that he can't come over and do private work outs. There is obviously the National team, but also, I think China is hell bent on making sure that Ming goes #1, so they only let the team with the #1 pick see him after the lottery. The consolation prize to Ming not going #1 is that he plays for a big market team that will be on national tv, hence the Chicago and NYC private work outs. It is fair then to say that there is a bigger question mark for Ming than other guys because they have had to work out or play against eachother. Ming, on the other hand, has yet to work out against his peers in the draft, i.e. other lottery poetential draftees. That's my theory on why Francis might be miffed. He'd like to have seen Ming up close and personal before the draft.
Whoa now, I said Odom would fit our 3spot perfectly, I never said we should not get Yao or that Yao wouldn't help at all. Odom has proven he has the skills to be a great 3, he just needs to fix the off the court problems. I'm not completely sold on Ming, but I never said to take Odom rather than Ming...so settle down
I would NOT trade Steve Franchise for Andre Miller straight up. Sure, Francis may be a short assed shooting guard masquerading as an inept point (I'm paraphrasing ), but he's also an All-Star. Miller is good, but does not have Francis' flash and marketability, and likely never will. Andre Miller plus Cleveland's number one next draft for Steve Francis is a better trade. Hell, I'd also try to throw Cato in the deal for Diop as well. And the only way Houston should deal w/Chicago is AFTER the draft. Trade Francis to Chicago for Jay Williams and Jamal Crawford PLUS their number one next draft. I would think that the Clips would find Crawford (plus KT and TMo/Collier) for Odom as attractive or more than just Snow. PG: Miller/JWill & Mooch/Tierre SG: Cat & OT/#37 SF: Odom & Rice/#15 PF: MoT/Eddie/#15 C: Yao & Diop
Deep is Strong After Steve,. . . .what do we have After Mobley where we at? U see Steve = 10 . .. Mochie = 5 = 7.5 Mobely = 10 . . OT = 5 = 7.5 Mo Tay = 8 Griff = 8 . .Kt = 8 = 8 Rocket River
SG Mobley=10 skill for 24 min Francis=10 skill for 12 min Torres=5 skill for 12 min 24* 10 + 12 * 10 + 5 * 12 = 420 skill minutes or An average of 8.75 skill rating PF Mo Tay = Griffin = K9 = 8 skill 48 *8 = 384 skill minutes or An average 8 skill rating Through my rigorous analysis using your precise skill ratings, shooting guard is stronger than power forward.
