May I suggest a reconsideration of your definition? We all have black (bad or wrong w/o ?) and white (good or right w/o ?) bands at the end of our continuum. They vary individually in width. Dare I say that the "moral relativists'" black band is narrower and the "absolutists" is wider. Accordingly, our grays shade more quickly or slowly along the continuum based on the camp we primarily reside in. Our white bands probably look about the same The real disagreement is about what events belong in the gray and, if they do, in what shade of gray and, of course, some regular disputes over why some event definitively is not in the black category. The derrogatory remarks run <b>both ways</b> if you please! <b>grizzled</b>: If you found out your neighbor was boinking dogs, would you invite him to your next house party? Remember, let's not be judgemental!
I know. That's why I used the term "absolutist." I wanted to show that even if something is an accepted phrase, it can still take on a derragatory tone in the right setting. Clearly it had that effect on you.
Why is every thread here, regardless of the original topic, starting to look the same to me? I've fallen, and I can't get up. This is surreal, and I don't even know what that means.
Yeah, well, I think it's a categorical description that pretty much doesn't exist and is used to put people down....
Thanks Max and Joe Joe. Giddyup: If found out my neighbour was bonking dogs I’d call the cops on him. That’s illegal, and cruel to the dogs. But I still have no right to judge the man. Even if I’m pretty confident that what he’s done is wrong, or a sin, it’s not for me to say he is evil or Godless or irredeemable. Surely you have sinned as some time in your life? I’ll anticipate your response. “Of course, but nothing nearly as bad as what this guy did!” Now we’re into ranking sins, and that starts to get troublesome quickly. Are murderers evil? King David murdered a man so he could steal his wife. Paul was probably a multiple murder. Should we judge these guys? Jesus himself spared a woman who was caught committing a sexually immoral act (John 8). Maybe he got it wrong? Maybe we should judge her anyway? Peter denied Christ 3 times just as he was about to be crucified. Was he a terrible person? Judging is a tricky business, best left to God. Righteousness is not about judgement in any way, IMO. It’s about faith, grace and forgiveness. But this doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t separate some people from society, for their good and ours (as best as we can determine it), only that we should do it in a Godly way. It’s all about living by, or more accurately striving to live by, the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Anger and judgement aren’t on the list.
Grizzled...I could not agree more...thanks for holding me accountable!!! Your posts are truly a blessing to me!
Grizz: You rule. Tremendous post. So does that mean David Lee Roth's lyric "And the meek shall inherit ****" is translated incorrectly?
Thanks Max and Jeff! Max, you know I’m not trying to judge you. I should throw that thanks right back at you because you challenge me to think about what I believe and why. Thanks! Jeff, yeah I think there may be something out of place there. It doesn’t quite ring right that way.
<b>Grizzled</b>: 1. I don't disagree with anything you wrote 2. You didn't answer my question See what some people are so quick around here to call "judging," I call discernment. Do you normally hang with people whose lifestyle or values are alien to you? I wouldn't have that guy over to my house, would youo? What do you call that then? I'm not trying to be critical because you know what I would do. I'm just trying to get a straight answer to a tough question. All the theorizing is nice but get down to reality: he's your neighbor and you've invited everyone but him so far... what do you do? I know what I'd do.
giddyup: I agree that we haven’t clearly defined the topic, and that some people may be talking about slightly different things. In this context, discernment is the word I use for making the personal decision about what’s healthy or right for me to do I a given situation. Judging has a different meaning to me. To answer the question, would I have him over to dinner as part of a neighbourhood party? Possibly, depending on the circumstances. Would I let my kids (if I had any) go over to his place to play? Almost certainly not. The main question for me would be, do I feel he’s a threat? If I didn’t see him as a threat I might invite him over. I suspect the guy is a pretty broken man at this point. That’s a point where people can choose to make some big changes in their lives, and if that’s where he was at I’d like to think I could have some compassion for him. But in all honesty, if he creeped me out too much I wouldn’t do it. That would be just too awkward and not good for anybody. I might take him out for coffee or something like that, in stead. backwardhead: I think that’s a topic for a separate thread, and one that might well get some lively responses.
<b>Grizzled</b>: Okay, me neither. People shouldn't confuse "discernment" with "judgement." We do the former all day every day. We might do the latter but it's really none of our business while discernment is every bit our business. What did backward head say? All that's left is a frowning emoticon....
After I made my initial post those where my thoughts. I hadn't acutally read the entire history of this thread and thought that it just wouldn't be cool to open another can of worms on the ethics/morality gig without really participating in the current discussion. Also, I'm too busy at work to really be a part of the discussion and that's why I put the sad face in the post instead. As you were.
It appears to me that a judgement is often just a discernment that you wouldn't make yourself. Isn't that being judgemental in and of itself?
Giddyup, grizzlied, others--great job turning a horrid story and a seemingly hopeless thread into a very interesting debate. Hope this doesn't side track, but neither the right or left has lone standing on being on the "moral relativist" or "absolutists" poles--they just put forth their full court press on the particular values they hold most important--be it anti-death penalty, anti-abortion, pro-environment, working against apartied, communism, sexism, etc, etc. All political groups (and I assume most all people) have their "moral absolutes" if you will (that which should not be tolerated by any society), it is mainly a question on which one's they value and put their energy and money in.
Yes!!! That is what I was thinking when I agreed with tbagain that judgement is good for civilization. I agree wholeheartedly with Grizzled and Jeff here. We are not to judge a person or their soul. But their actions, in accordance to the laws that we have set forth for society to follow, can be judged. That is the whole basis of the judicial system, our set of laws. We have judges and we have juries. We can judge what earthly actions are wrong and deem them as punishable offenses. Otherwise, we would be a lawless society with murderers and thieves on every street corner, instead of in jail. Do you agree ?
I agree with the basics of your intuition Jeff, although in my spirited moments I think as an objectivist (... God doesn't exist... insert Kant and ignore a few premises to make society work *leap* objectivism, lol). I do think that much of the noise in the morality spectrum can be fined tuned, however, and that objectivists and subjectivists actually agree on many issues. I would say that little counterexamples such as "but it's okay to kill in self defense" are just specific absolutes, not counterexamples to objectivism. I know... I know... a jejune philosophy, but one that lets me concentrate on more important things... such as boinking my wife and evolutionary ecology. Oh yeah, I forgot... this thread's a bunch of claptrap! Let's kick this guy's ass! Why is Winnie the Peg even letting this guy hang out there! He had a dog hanging from the ****ing rafters! On a related note Grizzled, I currently have a plan to Vancouver planned for Aug 10, to Aug 18th. I think you should inform your prime minister, or queen or whatever you guys have up there... that you guys are going to have some serious issues with tourism if you don't put this guy down.
p.s. I need to point out that I love seeing so much backslapping across party lines. We need emoticons for this stuff! Clutch, do you think you can put something together? Pinko on pinko backslap, pinko on white male holding handgun backslap, vice versa and then the white male handgun holders backslapping one another.
