I posted this on another thread. I am really tired of debating this. I think anyone with an open mind would now see Pike/AG for Posey was an unwise decision. If Posey had stunk it up for Memphis I'd come out and say I was wrong, I admit I was mad at the Robert Horry pick over Baby Jordan. But who was responsible for the Posey decision, I don't know. I think it was more Les, but don't know for sure. ****************************** If Les was willing to match Posey (or KT before) and still use part or all of the MLE to bring in other FAs but CD thought it best to sign Pike and A Griffin over Posey I take back what I said. In that case Les is a fine steward and CD has to go. There is time this offseason to make up for mistakes--regardless who made them. Les can insist on using the trade exemption and taking on more salary if necc to make the Rockets a better team next offseason. The proof will be in the pudding, I hope the problems was CD because GMs are a whole lot easier to fire.
aelliott is right on the money IMO. Posey's defense was overrated, in that he liked to play the passing lanes quite a bit (obviously, something a JVG defense does not do). His man to man defense was good, but not spectacular. As far as Posey being able to do alot more than JJ, there are only two advantages that Posey has over JJ: Youth and being better on the break I'll take JJ, at half the price, every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
This is like comparing apples to orangutans...the terms/conditions of the contracts do not make sense. I agree with Willis24, aelliot, codell et al... JJ is the better value (period).
Many people has already pointed out why Posey is better in Memphis than in Houston. I'm not gonna repeat it. Role players are interchangeable. Only star players or semi-star players have long term value. Who cares what we have 3 years down the road other than Yao and Francis or another star player? If Posey keeps playing like a semi-star in the next 5 years or so down the road, then I'll say I'm wrong.
If James Posey would not fit in your system, your system must not be condusive to winning. You guys are right, Posey does not have consistent offensive games, but he ALWAYS seems to have big offensive games when we are struggling to score. Hmmm... When we need a big steal, Posey seems to get it. Need a big rebound, James Posey again. Also remember with our depth he is not required to produce big numbers. James Posey is one of those players that can only truly be appreciated if you see him, game after game.
I surprised at this analysis aelliott. Without question Posey is cheap (4 years/23.7mil) for a servicable starting player who is neither in his rookie contract nor in clearly his last (player who will be mid-30s+). Just look at the other market based contracts for Maggette, Howard, Odom, Lewis, Dre, etc the last couple of years. Further, Posey and MoT's contracts would have been off the books the same year, the likelihood we get significantly under the cap by not signing Posey is very, very slim, and regardless we have our MLE to use. The trade off between Pike/A Griffin and Posey has undoubtably been terrible for the Rockets. But it is done so hopefully we can do something magical with the trade exemption and/or trading Francis to erase many of the long term strategic mistakes the last few years I gotta disagree with you Scar. Almost 6 mil/year isn't cheap for a role player. I won't tell you that guys of his calibur haven't been overpaid to that amount before, but that doesn't mean that we should have repeated those mistakes. I don't really see what those guys that you mentioned have to do with Posey. Those guys are all much better players than Posey. In today's NBA, there's really not much of a middle class. The stars make the big money and then there's a big gap between them and the rest of the guys. Posey is one of "the rest of the guys". We can sit here and argue who is better JJ or Posey, but the fact that it's even arguable tells me that JJ is a much better value. We got Jackson at his market value, so why would I pay a comparable player four times that amount? Who'll be better in 6 years? Who cares? We didn't sign Jackson for 6 years. Worst case, we can go out and get another guy of that skill level and pay him market rate, which will still be much, much less than what Posey is making. As far as Posey's effectiveness, it seems pretty simple to me. On offense he's much better in the open floor and we simply don't run. In the half court, Yao's postups take away alot of the driving lanes that we had last year. Like it or not, our offense is based on kicking the ball into Yao and then spotting up. That is not Posey's game. On defense, Posey gambles constantly. He's like Iverson, he'll get alot of steals, but he'll get burned just as much. Posey isn't a lock down defender...never has been...never will be. Again, it's simply not his game. Memphis presses and traps constantly. That complements Posey's game. Van Gundy's defense is based on consistency and making the right rotations each time. In that type of game Jackson is better. He's more consistent and stays with his assignment better than Posey. I'm not really sure why you keep including Piakowski and Griffin in the Posey discussion. It wasn't a case of selecting them or Posey. Matching Posey's offer wasn't a good decision for us. That's why we declined to match the offer. We did add those guys to the roster, but that's not the reason that we didn't match Posey's offer. We've already got too many overpaid role player, the last thing that we needed was to add another. The thing that separated good teams from great teams is the same thing that JVG has been preaching all year...consistency. As a team, you never know what you are going to get from us from night to night. Will it be the team that loses to the Suns or the one that beats the T-Wolves on the road? Unfortunatly, that's to be somewhat expected because we've got a roster full of guys that are very inconsistent. With most of our players, you never know what you'll get from game to game. It seems it's either feast or famine. Posey is another wildly inconsistent guy that we don't really need to throw into our mix. Look at his games this year. He'll score 20 tonight, 20 tommorrow and then be in single digits the next few games. For us, that's a bad thing. For Memphis it's ok, because they've got other guys that they can count on.
.If James Posey would not fit in your system, your system must not be condusive to winning Let's see, our system is pretty much a carbon copy of the Spurs, who've won two championships. It's pretty similar to the system that we won two championships with during the Hakeem era. Now who was the last running/trapping team that won a championship? You guys are right, Posey does not have consistent offensive games, You can stop right there, you just made my argument. We NEED guys that are consistent. We've got a slew of guys that go off one night and disappear the next. If that's ok for the Grizzlies, then great, but it's the last thing that the Rockets need. Also remember with our depth he is not required to produce big numbers. Ahh...yet another argument that Posey is a good fit for the Grizzlies. But also another argument that isn't also true for the Rockets. If we're going to shell out that kind of money, we have to have consistency. Throw 5 or 6 other inconsistent guys into your rotatation and then see how it works out. James Posey is one of those players that can only truly be appreciated if you see him, game after game We saw plenty of Posey last year. He's not what we need. All styles aren't condusive to all players, that's no knock on Posey. Memphis plays a game that accentuates Posey's strengths and minimizes his weaknesses. Sounds like he's a good fit there. Here that's not the case. The second half of last season, teams didn't even guard Posey on the perimeter. They gladly let him hoist up jumpers and sent his man down to double on Yao. Our offense is going to revolve around Yao; that's a given. We need guys that complement Yao's game and Posey just isn't one of those guys. It's not really that much different than the Hakeem championship teams. A dominant big man surrounded with shooters. Posey wouldn't have been a good fit on that team either.
I would have to disagree, Mobley was and still is our best perimeter defender. Posey plays the passing lanes but he also gets burned alot. He was consistently getting burned by the likes of Harpring and Shandon last year, and is why we often had to switch Mobley on him. Posey is playing alot better than I thought he would in memphis but he still isn't worth the money he is getting, and to top it off he is a punk ass biatch who plays dirty when thing don't go his way and I rather not have those type of players on the rockets.
Last year as a Rocket he shot 44% from the field which was higher than either Mobley or Francis. After Boylen started working with Posey on the 3 point set shot, he became a much more consistent shooter. Posey may not be the ideal shooter but he has improved and is now at a career high 47% from the field. 47% for a non big man is fantastic. That's what happens when you are selective and don't just start jacking up crap from all over the field. He's also been able to capitalize on some fast break opportunities. Fast break opportunities that are completely absent on this team. James Posey is not a perfect fit for this system but that's not to say this system is ideal. You have to be multi dimensional. Smart teams are double and tripling Yao either before or right after he receives the ball. If teams shut down Yao, the Rockets chances of winning significantly decreases. Perhaps if we did incorporate some more transition game into our offense instead of relying on a pure inside out game, we can become more consistent offensively on nights when we cant shooot. Easy baskets lead to greater offensive consistency. What was Posey's biggest strength and why is he shooting 47%? What does this team lack?
Tis true. Posey would also be a good fit in NJ or possibley Utah *brrrr*. This team lacks a point guard that can run the break and set the tempo in transition.
Last year as a Rocket he shot 44% from the field which was higher than either Mobley or Francis. Hardly fair to compare the FG% of a role player with those of guys that are expected to carry the offense. Prior to being traded to the Rockets last season, Posey was one of Denver's primary scorers. What was his FG% like then? Try 37%. After Boylen started working with Posey on the 3 point set shot, he became a much more consistent shooter. He got better, but he's still not consistent and that's what we need. Posey may not be the ideal shooter but he has improved and is now at a career high 47% from the field. 47% for a non big man is fantastic. He's also been able to capitalize on some fast break opportunities. Fast break opportunities that are completely absent on this team. Yes, he gets alot of fast break baskets and easy baskets off of their pressure defense. That is the reason that he's shooting a higher FG%. He would not get those things here because we don't play that way. As long as we don't have a guard to run the break, we won't get many transition buckets, with Posey or without. Another case of their style fitting his game better than ours. James Posey is not a perfect fit for this system but that's not to say this system is ideal. You have to be multi dimensional. Smart teams are double and tripling Yao either before or right after he receives the ball. If teams shut down Yao, the Rockets chances of winning significantly decreases. Exactly how is Posey going to stop teams from doubling on Yao? What will he do different that he didn't do last year? Is anybody saying that our current team is perfect? Isn't there a bazillion thread suggesting that we trade for Rashard Lewis, Ray Allen, Brent Barry or Kirt Hinrich? Those guys are all shooters, not slashers. The way you stop teams from tripling Yao is to make them pay when he kicks it out. To do that, you need shooters. That's not Posey, teams will gladly leave him open just like they did last year. Multidimensional would be great. So, what has JVG been saying from day 1? We need to surround Yao with shooters. That hasn't changed and if we do that, then we're multi-diminsional. Perhaps if we did incorporate some more transition game into our offense instead of relying on a pure inside out game, we can become more consistent offensively on nights when we cant shooot. Fast breaks would be great. While we're at it, how about we throw in some heady play and good passing. Those things would be great, but how do you suppose we'd go about making it happen? Who's going to lead the break? Posey is a good wing man, but he's got to have somebody to lead the break for him and we don't have anybody that can do that. Having a guy that can run the floor doesn't help a whole lot if you don't have somebody to push the ball and deliver it to him. JVG screams the whole game for the Rockets to push the ball but it never happens. Easy baskets lead to greater offensive consistency. What was Posey's biggest strength and why is he shooting 47%? Posey isn't creating easy baskets, he's being setup by Jason Williams in the open court and by the Memphis trapping defense. We don't do those things. No team with a dominant center is going to play defense like that. So, if Posey isn't getting those easy opportunites, then he's not going to be that effective for the Rockets. What does this team lack? Consistent outside shooting, a player that can lead a fast break, good passing and high BBall IQ. Posey doesn't really help much in any of those areas. What don't we need more of? An inconsistent, athletic slasher type. We've got our quota of them already. .
This is how these arguments start breaking down. You're assuming Posey was the problem. Perhaps the problem is our PG who can't shoot and can't run the break. Perhaps it is our PF who either can't make a 2 foot jump shot or couldn't rebound if he was the only one on the court. The PG who can't lead the break = offensive liability. The PF who can't make a 2 foot jumpshot = offensive liability. The PF who can't rebound and throw an outlet pass = offensive liability. BUT, the SF who shoots 44-47% is the biggest liability? Yeah, ok. Those are all much greater defiencies than an athletic SF who is a selective-decent shooter, plays good defense, can rebound, and can run the floor like a gazelle. Imagine if we fixed either of the 1st 2 problems how much better this team would be. So it's the system. The system has some glaring problems that will prevent this team from advancing. Posey is a perfectly good cog who would be a nice fit in the right system. Not in this system where we have a few pieces that are clearly deficient and may not be here forever. So what do we do in the interim? throw away the good cog because who knows how long we overhaul the sometimes-working and sometimes-broken "system". It's obvious you don't build a team around James Posey. However, if you ever intend to add a good PG who can run, maybe it's a good idea to find some athletic players who can run with him.
but at the same time, you have to look at how long these "liabilities" will be with the team. If these liabilities are going to be here for another 3-5 years, we have to work with what we have and do the best with what we have. Signing or matching the contract given to Posey would mean another 24+ mil for a person that won't fit OUR system. This system we have now has given us a pretty decent record this year. JJ's contract is small. Eric P. + AG's contract is small and SHORT TERM. They have to also prepare to give Yao a pretty decent contract in less than 2 years. I just don't see how the Rockets can go over the cap that much by signing a 4 year contract that will pay well over 7 mil the final season.
How did you come up with the assumption that I was saying that Posey was our biggest liability? Did I blame Posey for our inability to run a break? Nope. I think we pretty much know where that blame goes. But, fact of the matter is that Posey doesn't create on the break, he's generally the finisher. Without the creator, he'll have nothing to finish. You were making the point that Posey would help us run, that simply isn't true. No matter who we have running the wings, it won't help until we've got a guy in the middle to lead the break. All those deficiencies that you pointed out are pretty much true. Like it or not, that's who we have. Adding Posey into that mix, simply doesn't help solve our problems. As I said in a previous post, that's no knock on Posey, he's just not a good fit for our needs. For somebody else he might be great, but we need a diffeent skillset. Especially, for that kind of a contract. If you think that we can trade away our entire roster and replace them with guys that fit better, then potentially Posey would be a fit here, I'll agree. Of course, that's pretty unrealistic, so why bother speculating. What do you think that our biggest problems are? I've already told you what I believe our weakness to be. Posey doesn't solve those issues. That includes the issues that you addressed in your previous post. Posey doesn't solve those problems.
well,..i just bought a TV... I see the comparison simliar to choosing between a newer, more expensive, widescreen plasma HD tv. or a cheaper, regular-dimensioned HD Tv. Although the newer tv will take advantage of technology down the road, the regular-CRT is able to handle everything you see at the moment at a cheaper cost. okay... maybe that didn't make the point..but I tried.
You have pointed out all the obvious weaknesses we have. But how does a running SF solve those problems that are located at the 1 and 4 spots? Nobody says Posey is our biggest liability, or that he's a bad player. We are just saying that his style doesn't help us and so signing him with that much money is not good for us.
Those of you thinking Posey won't make you pay as a jumpshooter left open have not been paying attention the later half of his time with Houston through this year. This year he is shooting .48 from the field--which agreed is increased by fast breaks, but also by .37 on 3s and .84 from the FT line. I believe the last half of the his time with us when he got accilimated and starting using a set shot his 3 point shot was also around 40%. James Posey is not a good mid-range shooter nor creates off the dribble, that is why his FG% dropped when he has had to be the creator or asked to shoot off the driblle (last couple years with Denver). But he is a solid spot up shooter and solid off the ball along with the all the other things he does (rebounds, steals, finishing fast breaks, etc). A system would have to be awefully disfunctional and have a lot bigger problems than James Posey if that "system" does not have a place for Posey's game to offer substantial contributions. No question inside-out teams like SA has used Manu, Jackson and Bowen, and LA has used Fox, George and Horry--Posey type players on their wings very effectively around their big guys. (These guys who are not great creators themselves--though Manu may down the line seperate himself here, but who are adequate off the ball & good enough shooters from 3 land to keep the defense honest along with their defense and other intangibles). Also, those teams also find a way to use those guys to finish breaks when available, though they are inside-out they still look for easy baskets and run outs when available because usually their opponents are crashing the boards to score points because of stifling defense. Again it seems to me if you think James Posey won't fit, you have a lot of bigger problems on your hands that needs to be addressed first. For 90% of the good teams, guys like him make solid 4th guys in their base rotation, or terrific last starters or 6th men.
A system would have to be awefully disfunctional and have a lot bigger problems than James Posey if that "system" does not have a place for Posey's game to offer substantial contributions I'm sure that any team in the league would love to have Posey as a sixth man/marginal starter, that's not really the issue. The problem is paying a 6th man/marginal starter an average of $6M/year. Most teams won't do that. The Rockets would have gladly resigned Posey if he would have taken an deal similar to Jackson's. But at the money he got, it's a no brainer to let him go.
