Talk about disingenuous. If Carr doesn't get a free pass, then neither does Johnson. If AJ gets a free pass, then so does DC. Because the correct answer is, they have both been severely hampered by the sprawling piece of crap assembled by Casserly and Capers. No one here would dare say Carr is top 5, but the potential is there. And AJ is not top five, but the potential (more so than for DC) is there. Baseball, basketball, and football are *all* team sports. Football far outreaches any of them in the way in which an individual depends upon his teammates--not just for performance, but even for his *safety*.
I agree, and that's what makes andre johnson's numbers even more impressive. even in a terrible year for the entire team he caught 63 passes in 13 games. I know this doesn't matter much, but listening to a couple of good wide receivers on dan patrik's show, chad johnson in particular, they all said johnson was one of the top receivers in the league. honestly, combination of size, strength, hands, leaping ability, speed, there's no receiver with that matches all like he does. chad johnson or marvin harrison randy moss aren't as strong, owens, boldin or fitzgerald aren't as fast, santana moss isn't as big. his speed is probably only surpassed by a healthy randy moss honestly.
James yards per carry has been phenomenal for years. Although DD had somewhat the same yardage, you can't compare what Morency had compared to the backup that James had in Mungro, etc. What made Indy great was their blocking and their yardages created by their offensive line. Their rushing was created by the talent that have with the offensive line. The zone coverage of Indy is probably one of the best in the league. Actually, neither parts of the offense was comparable to Indy's. But if you want to talk about the offensive line, there's your answer. Run blocking and pass blocking are so different in so many ways. DD has been great at running balls to where the rushers are well beyond the line. That doesn't work with passing. How often do you see a pass rusher go through the line untouched with Indianapolis? Manning have gone through stretches of games in where he was never touched. I believe last year, he went through 3 games without a sack and was touched a total of 4 times. His pocket is always there. With Carr, you've seen people that's in his face before he finished a 3 step dropback. There's a major difference. With rushing, you'll have times when the defense is dead on as they get through the line, but if they were off a little, DD would be past them because there wasn't much reaction time. That's how he was able to get his yardage. Now, what's the difference? James gets his yards by running around his O-Linemen until the pocket room collapses, DD gets bursts of yardage by heavy rushes who missed him coming by. You have consistant yardage vs yardage that comes in spurts. It's always nice to know that you can have 2nd and 6 instead of not knowing if you'll have 2nd and 2 or 2nd and 13. With the sure yardage, your short passing game becomes a threat to keep the opposition defense out there for a long time. That one's not very hard currently. Moss (Randy and Santana based on stats), Steve Smith, Boldin & Fitzgerald, Chad Johnson, TO (don't like that honestly), Chambers (stats wise), Galloway (stats wise), etc. Because that team was lacking an accurate quarterback for years. The talent that was great became better yearly. Cincinnati was an up and coming team when they picked Palmer, but their players were put in to grow together. They have probowler, but they were still improving and the team as a whole was in the process of getting better. Dillon was a great rusher, but the Bengals were losing for an eternity under him. Rudi Johnson was young and was gaining experience. The line was solid, but it needed a QB to protect and wide receivers that was recently picked. The said receivers need time to get situated.
Just standing on field level, you can see Andre Johnson is head and shoulders (literally!) above everyone else. That guy is HUGE. And he has mad talent. Why can Eli Manning air it out and let Buress go up and find it, but we can't air it out to Andre Johnson? Same with TO. Anytime you have a big, strong receiver like we do, there should be a handful of times every game where you just send him long and ask him to use his strength and size to get to the ball first.
actually, we did this last sunday and it worked pretty well. nice completion to johnson down the sideline.
Can the receiver get 30-40 yards downfield in 2.5 seconds? If not, that's why. You know, the whole "O-line" thing.
just a couple of points to some things I haven't already addressed. the year 04 in which I referenced, indy's rushing attack had a 4.3 avg, houston, 3.9. indy's rushing average wasn't all that. what happened that year, peyton set the touchdown record. meaning: all this talk about who's rushing game was better is sort of irrelevant because indy's wasn't all that in 04. actually I saw lavar arrington do it sunday night, and peyton read the blitz before it came and made a 7 yard completion addressed in previous post only one change in cincy, palmer
you’re not even addressing my post; which was attempting, as if effort was needed, to compare the RBs each had as a rookie. but whatever; i’ll play along. 2003 rushing yards per game: james: 104.9 davis: 73.6 2004 rushing yards per game: james: 96.8 davis: 74.5 and before you make the inevitable, “the texans were always behind and throwing,” or “the colts were always ahead and running” argument, giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’d come up with either: james averaged 22 carries a game; davis 19 manning averaged 33 attempts a game; carr 28. even adjusting the numbers down, james still outrushed davis by nearly 20 yards a game. so to even hint that edgerrin james and domanick davis are in the same class would universally render anything else you ever say on the subject of football irrelevant. i am by no means a carr apologist; far from it. but a) we were talking about their rookie years; b) if you’re going to use peyton manning as your measuring stick, then carr is never, ever going to be a successful nfl qb; manning is one of the greatest qbs of all-time. even david carr’s all-time arch-nemesis would agree that’s unfair. additionally, and getting back to the initial point: manning went to an organization that had some great parts already in place; that have continued to supply him with great parts consistently and that stabilized his environment from day 1 with an offensive coach and system that has not changed. carr has enjoyed not a single one of those advantages. that’s not apologizing; it’s stating fact. you’ve been tasked with disproving it. you’re failing miserably. since you later readily admit that you watch as a “hobby,” (as if i’m getting paid), i’ll let this comment slide with not a single snarky remark. but it is universally known and understood even by hobbyists that the person who has the most direct and immediate impact on a qb – especially a young, inexperienced one - is his position coach and/or coordinator. no, they’ve been far superior because edgerrin james is, has been and always will be a betterr back than domanick davis. the reason the team totals skewer closer is because carr has outrushed manning by 649 yards between 2003-2005; a difference of more than 200 yards a season, thus making up the difference in team totals. the reason carr has run for so many yards, of course, is because he’s running for his life far more often than peyton manning. it’s not comparable. and there’s a significant difference between pass blocking and run blocking. also, let me add - DD is a competent back; he runs hard, he runs forward and he has a quick burst to the line. but he’s not in edgerrin james’ class. he’s not even a top 10 back when healthy. and to jump your inevitable and flaccid, “simple. name them” response, here: james, alexander, r. johnson, ldt, portis, barber, mcallister, lewis, taylor, macgahee. before you got yourself neck-deep in this discussion, you would have traded DD for edge straight up so quickly, your head would have blown to bits. i know that; you know that; and everyone reading this thread knows that. and they would have done the same, as well. simple is right. last year, there were 37 players who caught more balls (including moulds, 7 TEs, 1 rb and 1 fb); they were 47 players who totaled more receiving yards; 88 players with more TDs and Johnson did not rank among the top 100 in yards per catch. w/o actually looking at those numbers, i’d list hines ward, steve smith, terrell owens, randy moss and chad johnson just off the top of my head. within the division, harrison and wayne are better. among the texans, statistically, eric moulds is better. who said they were great? me? no. some other sane, reasonably intelligent human being? no. but are you going to argue that allen/bradford/pitts/young was better than… or even remotely comparable to dillon/johnson/anderson/jones in terms of foundation, not to mention a good, successful qb mentor (kitna compared to the awful tony banks)? why would you – or anyone else - do that? to confirm beyond a reasonable doubt you know absolutely nothing about football? i’m counting 2 first round picks, 2 second round picks and 10 pro bowls among cincy’s group; among the texan group, a 2nd round pick, a 5th round pick, a 7th round pick and undrafted FA and zero pro bowls. maybe these were some of the “good” players carr’s played with? and yet, the line between us is so thin… well, hell of a nice guy, but no – he’s not great. but he and pitts have both been starting since 2002. when they learned new positions. i had no idea it got this desperate this quickly.
Did you watch the Texans game on Sunday? AJ had 6 catches for 101 yards, including a beautiful 44 yard reception off a picture-perfect throw by Carr. OK, not to come down on you Toast, but now I'm starting to wonder how many people slamming Carr in this thread actually watched the game on Sunday and how many are just repeating the same old talk-radio comments they heard last year. Seriously, if you watched the whole game (not just the highlights and lowlights), I don't see how you can think that Carr hasn't improved. I'm not saying he's where he should be (far from it), but judging by this ONE GAME, he has improved.
This is meaningless. . . .IMo not to dump on David but . . someone saying you a LEADER etc don't mean Squat esp when they part of the group that is Alledgedly constantly Failing you just because we boys. . we buddies. . I tell you what to do does mean I'm a great leader esp If you ain't doing what I need you to do Rocket River
pay attention ric, its texans vs. colts, not james vs. davis. the actual stats from the actual nfl.com web site, actually has houston ranked in from of indy for 04. ridiculous, just based on sunday's performance. again the whole whose receivers are better argument is chicken or egg, andre johnson actually puts up great numbers when you consider all the receivers in the discussion he has the worst qb. I wasn't the one bragging about my posting prowess
the other thing about the coordinators is that we know probably the biggest influence on peyton's development is peyton. and that's more the point than anything else, peyton studies probably more than any qb (at least that's what we're told) peyton calls his own plays. peyton doesn't get sacked because he is two steps in front of the defense, knowing most of the time where he's throwing before the ball is snapped. and that all goes back to what are the expectations of carr as a number one pick? I started having my doubts about the guy as a franchise player when he would have daddy at practice.
y r u comparing to peyton manning, who is going to be a top 10 qb when he's done. carr won't be peyton manning ever but please don't compare carr to manning.
Exactly. That's soooo ridiculous. Manning has: 1) More talent. 2) A better supporting cast--each and every year it's been far better. 3) Better coaching--top to bottom, each and every year. Yeah, makes sense--b/c DC was picked #1, let's measure him against Peyton freaking Manning. Brad Lidge went #1; let's compare him to Sandy Koufax.
How does manning have more talent, is his arm stronger, is he more athletic, is he bigger, is he smarter? besides, no one is saying carr should be as good, just carr should be further along in his develompment, and the excuses are tired. that's why I offered up carson palmer, he's younger, but I guess that's so ridiculous also.
Why is it that you take clips of my post and try to argue that without all the points I'm making to back up what I've said? My main argument was in the offensive line and how the blitzes were picked up beautifully 95% of the time. Manning's offense and his ability to call the offense gives him a quick out with the talented receivers that he has in the slot position and the TE spot as well. That was one play where his blockers failed him. If you want to talk about 1 game, we can go on about the 5 pass deflections manning threw compared to Carr's 3. They both had 1 interception. My point, is that there's no valid argument that Manning's better, yet there's also no argument that Manning's protection is many times better than what Carr's been getting or got in game 1 of this season. Why is it that some systems are better for running games and some aren't? It's because of zone blocking. I mentioned it in the last post, which was ignored, at how blocking schemes for run plays and pass plays are different in so many ways. The Texans have always ran somewhat of a delayed handoff and allow Davis to burst through partial tackles, as in tackles that aren't square on. That really doesn't show much about the offensive line, except that once they let the line get through, the secondary will have to step up immediately to avoid yards-per-carry damage. T.J. Houshmanzadeh (resigned with team in 2004), for one, is one of the big game changers that Palmer's gotten, but that's taking things off the point, which is the line, that got consistantly better with new additions EACH year! Palmer was far from the only acquisition and any suggestions otherwise is just negligence at the facts. at the beginning of last year, 3 offensive linemen were signed to multiyear contracts with 3 more being signed midseason to bolster the line. Last year, the Texans have 5 O-linemen at one point and almost had to use their blocking TE as one late in the season. Marvin Lewis came in during 2003, same year Palmer was drafted. Peter Warrick (became an eventual bust) was productive for a short period of time. In 2005, they signed 2 offensive tackles, 1 to a 3 year contract. The defensive corners was improved as well, but that's besides the point. If you compare the transaction list of Indy or Cincin against the Texans the past couple years, you'll notice a strange difference... theirs is about 3 times the list because they have talent that the texans don't. In cincinnati, they've signed 4 former Texans to contracts, all 4 were released within the month.
No one's saying that Peyton's not better, that's not even an argument. Your point is that you're putting some of these things on Carr where it's not fair. You're practically saying that Manning could make do with what the TExans have in talent and the argument is there that it's a little exagerrated. I would love it if Carr has the studious mentality that Peyton has or show more emotions and drive to win, but it does not take away that Carr is not at fault for half of his production. In fact, game 1 has shown what he could become with just a little more help around him. To say that the rushing wasn't much different and using that as the argument that Carr should do better because of that is not a strong argument in any ways. There are factors in a TEAM game that could make or break a specific player. Fast downfield receivers is moot if Carr has no time to let them break free. Pocket presence is negligent if there is no pocket most of the time. It's like saying our CBs can't guard anyone because they get completions, when people like McNabb had all day to throw this past Sunday. My argument is that the offensive line is not giving Carr the chance to excel while Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer were protected by their management in their willingness to spend money where money is needed to be spent. They went out and got plenty of offensive line help to allow their "talent" to grow. There's a connection there. We're arguing our point. Stop trying to take everything so personally as an attack towards you.
no, it was actually the 1998 colts vs the 2002 texans. but i still indulged your inability to pay attention and addressed the distinction between james/davis and colts/texans - explaining the differential in the numbers (carr out rushing manning - remember?). if you still think the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th leading rushers on a team are as important as the leading rusher, what else can i say? you know what's funny? sad? you were the one who labeled johnson a top 5 receiver. i'm not sure what the criteria was (receivers named johnson, maybe?), but you were so thoroughly blown out of the water on the claim by several other posters that you've now been reduced to pretneding you never even made the claim, responding instead to my little, "oh by the way" aside. and no, i wouldn't take moulds over aj. but here are their combined numbers over their last 45 games (which encompasses aj's entire career): ajo: 208/2,806/13.5/12 em: 242/2,714/11.2/11 and to address your "he has the worst qb" excuse; here are the team qb ratings for the bills and texans over those 45 games: hou: 69.7; 83.0; 76.0 buf: 69.4; 76.7; 75.4 it's almost like the facts are actively avoiding you at this point. i would suggest you stop, but it's kind of fun. are you really bringing omnipotent dads into a discussion of carr and manning? but really, this was never about expectations; it was about whether peyton manning was/is a fair measuring stick for david carr. and he was/is not. neither is carson palmer. in lieu of the mouting evidence, you've resorted to distilling responses down until you find a point you've made that hasn't yet crumbled. but the fact remains you cannot disprove that manning (and palmer) were both put in infinitely better situations as rookies. you've been invited to do so repeatedly; you're now just ignoring it and trying to create a new " initial starting point". as for carr, i officially jumped off his bandwagon last year. sunday was encouraging, but he'll need to string together a lot more than "encouraging" to win me back. he has this year.
I'm not even going to dignify that drivel with a response. Yet you keep referring to Manning. It makes no sense. Yes he should be further along. No, the variables that have contributed to that are not "tired excuses", whether armchair GMs like yourself or myself want to dismiss them or not. I'll admit to you quickly that it's not all on the sorry, pathetic coaching and nonexistant "Kleenex" O-line, but many folks around here act like Carr is the second coming of David Klingler and won't acknowledge the very real factors that have kept this entire organization, not just David Carr, down. Not a ridiculous comparison, but if you don't acknowledge the superior tools his organization put around him then it becomes ridiculous.
