North Korea begging to have the s*** bombed out of them.

It is not a question of the bravery of the PLA, it is just that they lack the military technology & equipment to take Taiwan in the near future (before 2010 minimum).

 

madmax,
isnt the founder of communism is a westerner isnt cuba n ussr consider the west???!!! what happan to these westerner that they found a governemt so powerful that it run over individual???
great britain , egypt, china all these country were run by emperor n it all had a gret history and culture, so is it mean that imperialism was a good system then ???? queen victoria, some of the pharoah n some chinese emperor were some great classic example of great leaders from imperialism country so is this mean imperialism is good???

 

Mango,
better technologies make the wins easier n less injuries but its not the reason why pla back down it is becuz pla cant find a legit reason to attack taiwn yet

 

Actually internal PLA documents reveal that they saw how much of an ass whipping Iraq took from the US led forces in the Gulf War ('91). That destruction of the (at the time) 4th largest army in the world led to their current drive for modernization because they understood the traditional PLA doctrine of using overwhelming manpower would not work in a conflict with a modern power (see the USA). If the PRC and the US tango, the PLA will be utterly destroyed, although I don't think ANYONE would conclude the US could OCCUPY China. Simply too many people, and to kill millions upon millions of Chinese in such an attempt would never be acceptable to the American public.

Having said that, the PRC does not now, nor will it have in the near future (2025 at the earliest) the capability to take Taiwan by force unless the US withdraws support for Taiwan.

 

You cannot fight all foes the same way. With the PRC and USSR we fought a Cold War instead of a hot one. Meaning that we practiced containment and fought our war through proxies, as did the PRC and USSR, to avoid the inevitability of a direct confrontation going nuclear.

Since we have mutal defense treaty's with Japan and S Korea, a nuclear armed N Korea is our business. If we were to reneg on those agreements we would be the hypocrites you seem to think we are. In addition we have an agreement with N Korea which they are violating giving us further justification for action.

 

hayesstreet,
u cannot fight all foes the same way , yes its true when they are much stronger that there is no poosiblilty for the american to conqueror it, how is the usa not hyprocrtie when they give up south vietnam, n taiwan. also american saying they suppor the one china policy but on the other hand they trying to stop china to take back taiwan in anyway they could. and american saying how bad is china the human right ,n many other things but are dying to trade with china so they can make money....!!!
the problem is with all those treaty is that its all favor the american, why is the defense of south korea is amercian's business at the first place anyway. america thinks they are god they are world leader n world police this piss alot of people off, even the newly selected president of south korea dont want the us army in their land anymore. american always think they are right on everythings this is why things like 911 happan . and some american actually believe the cause of it is becuz some billionrie muslims dedicte his life to fight usa now is becuz he is jealous of the way of life of america. (i am not saying what bin laden did was right to kill innocent ppl )
about taiwan , there is nothing in taiwan for the usa to withdraw , how can u believe the pla is incapable of taking taiwan when the pla is capable to wipe out the town where you live in a touch of a button, people in taiwan n china are chinese, the pla dont want to use force unless taiwan claim independent, if the war really going to happan , the us force wont be much of a problem to the pla , first american public will not be interest in a war that really has nth to do with thier life, also no oil in taiwan!
second a few thousands of amercian soldier dies then the american public will go crazy n protest to stop the war.
the biggest problem that china will face is international pressure n the economy will suffer, china dont want a war unless it is nessisary with a legit reason.

 

China lacks in naval components (amphib assault and other major ships) and air force components to give them command of the skies. Without getting those factors in their favor, the PLA has no chance of retaking Taiwan by force. Despite the short distance between the Mainland and Taiwan, it would be a <b>HUGE</b> undertaking to transport a significant force to Taiwan and win the battle on the ground.

 

Well, we didn't 'give up' Taiwan. As I've said previously we still are guarantors of Taiwanese security in the face of PRC aggression, as evidenced by the '95 example. As for Vietnam, there was neither enough support for the continued US engagement either by the US nor the S Vietnamese public. Hence there was no choice but to withdrawl.

Yes, they support a 'one China' policy because we want a more peaceful world. The PRC has a billion people and we want them to be part of the world community, not a enemy of it. But from the beginning of the declaration for a one China policy the US has also said it would NOT support the PRC trying to forceably reunify with Taiwan. That is why we continue to guarantee Taiwans security. The problem is getting more complicated, however, as the older generation of Chinese die and the new generation of Taiwanese are coming to power with no reason to want to reunify with the PRC, and I don't blame them.

True, but a good example of the US putting human rights over economic success are the sanctions implemented after the crackdown in Tianamen, which was clearly AGAINST US business interests in the name of human rights and democratic reform.

Uh, because the people of S Korea didn't want to live under a Soviet sponsered communist dictatorship. That is why its our business. And because we were asked for help. That is why its our business. And its hardly in our favor for thousands of US servicemen to have died in Korea when as you pointed out there is no oil or other natural resource in Korea. We did it because we were against communist aggression. And again you should remember the Korean War was the UNITED NATIONS against the PRC and N Korea. Explain that.

That's tough. The countries that are ready to be responsible peaceful members of the world community have no need to fear from the US. Those that don't take their chances.

I doubt you'll find too many S Koreans who don't want the US presence in the face of N Koreans nuclearism, lol.

If that's the price we pay for doing what we think is right, then I'll take it. We'll not back down because someone seeks to terrorize us into inaction.

Actually I'm in London and I am pretty sure that PLA missles cannot hit this target, but besides that PLA nukes have limited range to hit the US, mainly the West Coast - which I don't particularly care for anyway. And I doubt even in a conventional conflict over Taiwan the PRC would be stupid enough to go nuclear. The PRC could hit (maybe) a few US cities while the US could wipe out every PRC city and military base. In the more likely conventional conflict the PLA would not survive four weeks of conflict. You have no blue water navy and no air capability comparable to the US.

As I said it is becoming more complicated now as more Taiwanese are not originally from the mainland, and feel no need to be dominated by mainland Chinese. I don't know why they would or should. The only real way I can see reunification happening is if the system becomes democratic in the PRC, in which case it might be natural for Taiwan to rejoin with the mainland.

Actually there is supposed to be lots of oil in the Spratley's (south china sea), but there is also strategic interest in the South China Sea shipping lanes, which we wouldn't want an aggressive PRC to try and dominate. But aside from that I've pointed out specifically how the PRC does not have the blue water or air capability to tangle with US forces. Facts are facts. Billions of individuals don't help you on the ocean or in the air.

We'll see. I don't think so. We identify greatly with those Chinese who do not want to be forceably reunited with the mainland.

Yep. Your economy will be crushed if you get aggressive. Too bad for you. Maybe it will keep the PRC peaceful until you go democratic. Otherwise you could have serious problems internally when the economy goes south, with splits in the PLA and between the richer south and the poorer north.

 

no foraml relationship with taiwan is giving up on taiwan, reason why usa dont want china to take taiwan back with force is becuz they dunt want to see a stronger china , usa didnt give a fxxk about vietnam when north take over the south!!!!!
This is why i say usa is hyprocrite they say they support 1 china but they dunt to see taiwan to reunify with china, for a person like of cource wont understand or even tho u understand u wont want to see a reunify china cuz u or american hate communism n hate to see a stronger china. peoples in taiwan n china are the same people same color of eyes same tribes(han) same color of hair same race same culture they are chinese why separate into 2 country becuz of political reasons???
so usa is has the responsiblity of peaceful member of the world community by naming some countrys with diffferent beliefs n system axis of evil, threatening to attack a country like iraq. attacking afghanistan so innocents suffer becuz one bad person they want lives there, making a misslies defense system to seprate the world into two, enemies or allies , armrace,airbombing yugoslavia so thousands are dead, station troops everywhere in the world having thousands of nuclear warhead that can destroy the earth million times yes the american is the greatest they are god the president are holy n he is try to have more peaceful world by having more wars.
look at what happan the last 2 time when american went to war with china they suffer, many american dead even tho they had much greater advantage of technology , u dunt need blue navy to conqueror taiwan , blue navy is for conqeoring the world. look back what happan in vietnam when us soldiers start dying in great numbers, the public want no more wars , this will happan if there is a a war in taiwan n usa get involve , the amercian will back off like they did in korea n vietnam cuz they are scare to die for meningless war , unlike the chinese if the pla will fight they are fighting for unity, fighting for a nationalism goal which will have a much higher morale and it wonuldnt matter to chinese as much about the numbers of dead s soldiers man. the biggest advantage the chinese over amercian in a war like this is us soldier need to trave thousands of miles away from home to fight in a foreign land when the pla is fight at home.
last points is that China is always a peaceful country throughout history , dont let that propergander brain wash u about the growing threat of china becuz china is a communist country. In 50 years or so the china will have the largest econnmy this is what the american dunt want to see becuz american always want to be the strongest . this is too bad for u guys cuz china will be stronger than usa and uk put together in no less than 100 years n dont forget about india too.

 

HayesStreet: First Blood.

 

This fatcow guy is ridiculous.

China is stronger than the U.S.? You're joking, right?

 

Hayes, I know this was a few posts ago. I think it is one of the roots of the disagreement. We are not defending N. Korea and Iraq. We are just against invading them because we have foreign policy problems with them.

As you yourself pointed out many countries have been disuaded from nuclear proliferation without invasion.

You really underestimate the problems that will be caused for the US when virtually the whole world views us as bullies, your good intentions (or perhaps even Bush II's) not withstanding.

 

It's not too bad for Americans. If China has a strong economy ithen that means the communist nutjobs aren't opressing their people as much. And maybe they will leave democratic Taiwan alone.

 

Yeah, we just want to keep the PRC down . That's why we want the PRC to become more democratic, and become admitted into the WTO, and why we supported their ascension onto the UN Security Council, and why we support greater integration between the two countries. That is ridiculous. I'm sure the Communist Party tells you the US just wants to keep China weak, but the facts dispute the lies.

True we fear a stronger Communist China and hope for a stronger democratic China. A stronger communist China will continue to ship missles to rogue states, continue to threaten other countries with invasion, continue to destroy the environment and threat international waters by claiming them for thier own. A stronger communist China will continue to oppress their own population over politics and religion. I guess that is what you want.

The people in Taiwan do not want to be part of the PRC. Why should you get to invade them and force them to be? And the PRC has many peoples NOT HAN and yet they force them to be part of the PRC. How is that right?

Yes, Iraq is a threat to the world economy and to its neighbors. The only reason the US is in the Middle East is because of a UNITED NATIONS mission to stop Iraqi aggression. Do you deny Iraq invaded Iran or Kuwait? Do you deny Kuwait asked for US and UN help?

We attacked Afghanistan because the government refused to hand one bad man and his army over to us after he destroyed the WTC and part of the Pentagon. Do you deny this?

Why do you fear a system that makes nuclear weapons obsolete? Do you really think the US would first strike the PRC if we did not fear your nuclear weapons? Do you really think the American people hate Chinese people that much? I am sorry but you are wrong.

Which armsrace are you talking about?

Do you think Serbians are right to commit genocide on Bosnians and those in Kosovo? The US was not alone in those actions. NATO (which is most of Western Europe) were also involved. Muslim countries also called for action against Serbia. Do you think it is ok to massacre Bosnians? Bosnians asked US for help. Should we ignore them? And ignore Europeans and Muslims?

At the request of countries everywhere in the world.

Yep. And those missles did a good job preventing the Soviet expansion that would have happened otherwise. An expansion that also threatened the PRC, no?

Yes.

Not god, not holy. But trying to do the right thing.

Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it. -Old Chinese Proverb

What? What two times are you talking about? In Korea we lost men, that is true, but even with a million man PLA army you could get no farther than the original border between N and S Korea.

Interesting since PLA is now building a blue water capacity. Are you saying PLA is going to try and take over the world? Are you Pinky or the Brain? Sorry, but you do not have the navy necessary to take Taiwan.

I believe we accomplished our goal in Korea, which was to prevent the North from taking over the South. Unlike the hundreds of thousands of PLA soldiers who died for nothing but to prop up a totalitarian regime that starves its own people.

I bet it will matter to the families of those Chinese dead. They cannot be killed or put into prison camps as easily as when Mao was running things.

The US can fight anywhere anytime. Do not worry about that. You need a Navy and an Airforce to take Taiwan and you do not have either.

That is why you attacked UNITED NATIONS forces in Korea? That is why you attacked Vietnam? That is why you trade missles with Iraq and Iran and North Korea? That is why you threaten Taiwan by launching missles at it when elections come? That is why you kill Vietnamese and Philipino soldiers in South China Sea? I do not think Communist are peaceful.

You are contradicting yourself. First you say we want to trade with China then you say we do not want China to be strong economically. If China is weak economically then you cannot buy from US. So which is it? Do we want a strong Chinese economy or a weak Chinese economy? Make up your mind.

I say we want a strong Chinese economy, which is why we want you more involved in things like the WTO. The more open your economy gets the more open your political system gets, and the less dangerous you get. But this would make no sense to you because you think the US only wants to keep China weak. Again you are wrong.

 

I can understand that and am with you up to a point. But this is not a foreign policy problem like bananas into France, or steel quotas.

As for how other countries feel, I think two things. First, the whole world is NOT against these actions. You are vastly overstating the case. And second, 'Wise man makes his own decisions, and ignorant man follows the public opinion.' -Chinese Proverb

Sorry, but that fat cow got me looking at pages of Chinese proverbs!

 

I think America will survive.

 

thinking usa will survive when the whole world view usa is a bully is eaxctly why americans is picking fight everywhere, they are over confident , this is why things like 911 shock amercians,
u see hayesstreet your been brain wash think communism is bad cuz since day 1 u are growing up in a country that everybody tell u communism is bad , when did china ever attack another country for land or without a legit reason??? the chinese send miliions of volunteer man to korea n vietnam cuz they fighting for their belief in communism and n korea was aksing for help. how is china a theart more than the us cuz its communist when amercia attack a country cuz it wont hang them a guilty muslim. fearing a stonger communism china cuz its a different system n belief from the us system doesnt make u right!!
chinese attack united nation in south korea n usa cuz north korea ask for help
- chinese attacked vietnam cuz the viet soldier at the borderline keep robbing the villiges in china n chinese warned them many time n viet wouldnt stop.
- there is nothing wrong shipping misslies to country like iran n north korea chinses never consider them rogue state it is aemrican standard that they are rogue states,
- when did china ever threaten to invade another country???! like the us did to many other countries!!!!
-even if chinese government oppress their people over politics n reglion is none of american business, its their own internal affair business, american likes to get into other's people business !!!!
- people in taiwan dont want tobe paryt of prc ok , but people china want to reunify taiwan again taiwan is part of china so its mean it every chinese buisness, there maybe 30 millon chinese in taiwan who doesnt want to be part of prc but there is 1.3 billion people in china that wants taiwan to reunify with it motherland
- so one wtc n part of the pentagons n some 5000 lives give americans the right to invade a whole country!!! becuz there is one guilty muslim n his government refuse to hang him over?? the amercian jsut want some revenge so all the people in afghanistan have to suffer , this is so wrong!!!
-of course i fear a country that make a misslie system so they are the only country left that can strike other with its nuclear weapoons , so is the world too fear about it!!! anyone agree with american are under her protection n anyone disagree with her are enemies!!!!! again this is scary !!!!
- armrace, the misslie defense system will cause armrace cuz other countries that are not in it will try to make more sophiscated weapoons to break it
-american 's troops are everywhere becuz of the request of countries everywhere in the world, ok how about the request of majority of muslims in the middle east for american to leave thier holy land, how about japanese n korean taht are protesting againist troops station in thier country!!!!
- both ussr n usa having thousands of nulcear warhead is jsut sick !!!!
-what ever u say ii dunt agree on having peave by having more wars
- so the american is greatest in your minds mean u think other race is not as great since u think amercian is the greatest!!!! good way to see the world!!!
- the 2 wars are vietnam war n korean war , yes millions of pla die becuz the lack of good equipment compare to us troops , but at least usa didnt win with its superior advance military technologies show how weak american soldiers are when comparing to chinese , vietnam and korean!!!
- usa goal was to take control of the whole korea n even thought of invading north part of china when the north korean retreat to north china n fight gorilla style , the general that in charge at that time of the us suggest to use of atomic bomb to china but was refuese by the presidnet of us cuz they fear moscow would retliate for china!!! and the chinese that were send were volunteers , they didnt fight n died for nothing , they died for their beliefs, for thier nation pride, for thier leader!!!
- yes pla is trying to build a blue navy cuz now they see the importance of navy then before they care about land force more, but the principle of pla navy is defense !!!!
- the us cant fight everywhere that is why they fear to fight on land !!!
- those conflict in the southern china seas island with vietnam was china that got attacked first, vietnese initiate the attack n a group of chinese soldiers died before the pla recieve ordre from the central government to return fire
- china will be stronger than usa in 50 years n please ask yourself honestly do u want to see a country , like china, are stronger than usa regardless of communism or democracy!!!! with ego like the american when they always see themselves are the greatest i dunt think they want to see a country like china which is to be stonger than they are!!!

 

Nomar, I know where you are coming from, but just leave him alone.
fatfatcow, I understand your fury. However, statisticaly, the US would win any conflict right now with China. Maybe in 50 years capitalism will fail, maybe comuninsim will reign surpreme, but this now and capitalism rules. Just chill out, take both opinions in.

-Perl Ghost

 

china will be strogner in economy has nothing to do with captialism fail in 50 years!!!! and i want to know how ,statisticaly, the usa will win any conflict right now with china??!!