According to NBAtalk.com, the Hornets and Heat have agreed to a deal that works cap wise, of Eddie Jones and Anthony Mason for Jamal Mashburn and PJ Brown. Cap fillers will be thrown in from both sides. For those of you who were concerned over Mason and/or Miller, you got your wish. Apparently they got a deal done without the help from a 3rd team. http://www.charlotte.com/hornets/pub/hornweb0801.htm ------------------ Looking for next year's Dan Langhi? Draftsource.net [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited July 31, 2000).]
Damn! I suppose the hornets would not be intersted in a blockbuster trade that sends them williams, drew and kt for PJ brown, would they? damn damn damn! we HAD to get our hands on PJ! ------------------ "Never underestimate the heart of a champion"
Question for the capologists: How does this work on the cap? Is it because the Hornets are initially about 3 mil under the cap? I thought if they have to exceed the cap to re-sign Jones that he becomes a BYC player? Is there something Im missing here? ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
And more importantly, what the heck are they going to do with PJ and Coleman? There's obviously no need for both of them! I can't believe they are going to send PJ to LA for Rice! They can't be THAT stupid! Rice is a shadow of his former self and by sending PJ to LA they are only guaranteeing the estabilishment of a dinasty over there! ------------------ "Never underestimate the heart of a champion"
Still can't believe Riley gave up on both Brown and Mashburn for Jones. He is not THAT good. Who's gonna play SF for the heat? Ricky Davis? and if i recall, Jones specifically said that he DID NOT wanted to play with Mason again. This may not be over yet. I say drew, williams and KT for mason! lol ------------------ "Never underestimate the heart of a champion"
Thanos Im pretty sure your right in PJ Brown getting moved to to the Lakers for Rice. A lineup of Oneal, Brown, Horry, Harper, and Bryant could totally run rough shot on the league. That could be a dynasty in the making. ------------------
MManual, I'm no capologist but anytime i have read about a trade involving Jones, they mention that it is greatly complicated by Jone's BYC status. the Question is, is a line-up of Mourning, Mason, Majerle, Jones and Hardaway Better than Mourning, PJ, Mashburn, Majerle and Hardaway. Smee ------------------ Stuff BBS, the Rockets and you guys It's all Clippers these days, come join the bandwagon and visit http://www.ClippersCity.net
Because the rules let you trade within 15% of overall salaries, 2 teams can make it work by adding enough players so that the math works as follows (using CHA and MIA as examples with E. Jones): CHA other players plus 1/2 E. Jones salary (+ 15% =) approx. MIA players (+15% =) CHA other players plus full E. Jones salary In other words, pile up the other team's contracts so that the free agent's base-year discrepancy (1/2 the new salary) is equal to 30% of the deal offered, then balance your salaries within 15% on either end. I learned about this last week on a Lakers newsgroup, where some fans (including the guy who wrote the Salary Cap FAQ) were cooking up ways that L.A. could get Jones back. ------------------
Something tells me the report is wrong. Wasn't the Antoine Walker deal "done"? Notice there's not a single quote in the report. Thanos is also correct that EJ wants to get away from Mason, why would he accept a trade for it? And if this trade was "official" why are there still cap fillers needed? There aren't PTBNL in basketball. Swopa-From the looks of it, that still doesn't work. Jones makes 9 mill Mason makes about 5 mill Charlotte can take back 9.5, giving 14 Mashburn/Brown make approx. 11.5 million. 11.5+15%is only 13.2, Charlotte then has to add about 4 mill worth of players, then forcing them to give 18, meaning Miami has to up their total, etc, and it's a moving target. To get 4.5 million to be 15%, you have to go up to 30 million. 15% of 30 million is exactly 4.5 million The only way this makes any sense, is if Jones really wanted that .75 mill, rather than sign for 2.25, and signing for 3 mill. But even that theory is screwed up, because for .75 mill, he's costing the Heat their 2 starting forwards, and if he just signed a 1 year deal, the Heat will have cap room next year to max him out. Maybe I'm just hoping the Rockets are in on it for Miller's sake, but I've got a feeling this is a little premature. Maybe those players from each side will be involved, but I'm pretty sure there'll be a 3rd team. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited July 31, 2000).]
Nikester, The Miami Herald is reporting the deal to be true : Monday, July 31, 2000 Last Update: 09:06 PM EST Heat to land E. Jones in trade GONE: Heat forwards P.J. Brown and Jamal Mashburn are headed to the Charlotte Hornets in exchange for Eddie Jones and Anthony Mason in a multi-player deal. The Charlotte Hornets and Miami Heat agreed to a major trade Monday afternoon that will swap Eddie Jones and Anthony Mason for Heat forwards Jamal Mashburn and P.J. Brown, multiple league sources told The Charlotte Observer. Several other players were added to the deal to make it work under NBA salary cap rules. It appeared Monday night that the Hornets will get Otis Thorpe, Tim James and Rodney Buford. The Heat would apparently get Ricky Davis and Dale Ellis. The Hornets and Heat were working out final details on those cap-balancing players and that part of the deal could be subject to minor revisions. ------------------ Just shut up and post
Sorry Nike, but it works money-wise... The Hornets take on 15.37mill in contracts and give up 17.775 (with EJones BYC status meaning it counts as 13.22mill) Check all those numbers and it's ALL within 15%... Looks like they got the deal to work Also, I think Mason will play SF for the Heat. They've Got Weatherspoon and Gatling to man their PF spot and Mason has played tons of SF in his career and has shown that he really can play well there. Might be able to play point forward again with Hardaway's knees being questionable.. the Heat lineup of PG Hardaway SG Jones SF Mason PF Weatherspoon C Mourning Reserves: Gatling, Carter, Majerle, Davis Doesn't look like a totally bad lineup... and allows Gatling to come off the bench and play significant minutes at PF and be a productive 6th man - I'm sure everyone remembers him being an all star as a 6th man? The other question in my mind is; what will the Hornets do with all their PF's?? They've got a TON of them and NO shooters... Call me crazy, but I'd like to see if we could wrangle a deal to send Drew and Williams to Charlotte for PJ.... ------------------
NIKE, with the other players rumored to be involved, I'm told it does work (I haven't done the math myself). But there could also be a 3rd team involved that we haven't heard about yet -- maybe the Heat/Hornets are trying to hold a reverse bidding war to see who'll accept the lowest "fee"; who knows? -- or maybe, as you note, the whole thing will still fall apart. The concept, however, of a BYC player being in a two-team swap even though both teams are over the cap seems to be legit. That was the only point I was trying to make. ------------------
perhaps I spoke too soon. Nevertheless, I still think a 3rd "darkhorse" team may be involved. The concept of 2 teams over the cap is possible. I haven't done the math for it either (there are no exact numbers of player salaries, only some approximations.) Charlotte still has a ton of big men from this-Campbell, Coleman, Brown, Thorpe, and they want to resign Miller...I don't see room for Miller on that team, perhaps that positive could come out of it? Also, Miami was supposed to be one of the teams with cap space next year. At least we won't have to worry about a Florida team with cap space next year. BTW, http://seattlep-i.nwsource.com/basketball/sonx264.shtml Lewis, who turns 21 on Aug. 8, said he will return to Seattle next week to sign a contract. Financial terms were not disclosed, because the NBA prohibits deals before Aug. 1. It is believed that Lewis will agree to a two-year deal worth at least $7.8 million -- the most the Sonics could offer. The package likely will give Lewis an option to pick up the second year. Lewis with a 2nd year PLAYER option....very intriguing. He can get his 4 million this year, and opt out of year 2....where he can sign for the max with Seattle, or come to Houston in free agency. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas. [This message has been edited by NIKEstrad (edited July 31, 2000).]
Swopa, Dr N, To my understanding, that is not how BYC works. I'd like some word from aelliott on this. Jones would be a 50% BYC player. BYC is not as easy as just taking back half the salary. For instance Miami would have to be able to fit Jones 9 mil on the cap and give back only 4.5 mil. The only way that works is if they have 4.5 mil cap room or a 4.5 mil trade exception which they have neither of. This is why I am wondering if a third team is involved. Thats why this deal in its current form makes zero sense to me. I understand the salaries add up to 15% of each other but that does not include that BYC stipulation. To make it work, to my understanding, a third team has to take 4.5 mil salary away for nothing which would mean that team has cap room for a 4.5 mil trade exception. Am I completely missing some hidden link here? Someone please explain. I am wondering if this will be like the Francis deal where at the last minute a third team became announced. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
MManal, believe me, I understand. I said the same thing when I first saw a 2-way Jones trade proposed. The trick is making the amount of salaries MIA ships out within 15% of the CHA player salaries, whether the BYC discrepancy is included or not. If the outgoing salaries are within 15% of BOTH figures, the deal is legit. In other words, if the BYC discrepancy is $4.5 million (as it is for Jones), make sure that the deal is big enough that $2.25 million is equal to 15% of the deal (e.g., a $15 million deal), and have the receiving team's outgoing salaries exactly split the difference ($10.5M with BYC factored in > $12.75M outgoing salaries > $15M total salaries received). And it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a last-minute 3rd team, as you suggest. If they can't thread the needle precisely, even a $1M trade exception could supply enough wiggle room to make things work. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Swopa (edited July 31, 2000).]
MManal, I think I agree with you I attempted to include the figures for the salary that Charlotte gives up and the figure that Miami receives and the figure that Miami gives up... let me try and say that again. For a BYC player the salary counts as a portion of their current salary, for a first year it is only 50%. Thus if Jones was to sign for 9million then Charlotte would have a "tradeable value" of 4.5million for Jones. So they could trade him for a player worth $4.5 million - of course the team taking on the 9million would need to be either under the salary cap or have a $4.5million dollar trade exception. Indiana has one, Houston has one, thus most people speculated that these teams would become 3rd party players in the deal. HOWEVER; Miami gave up a total of 15.37million and took on 13.22million Charlotte gave up a total of 17.775 mill and took on 15.37million. {{{NB: Assuming Jones signed a max deal.}}} If this trade is to labeled "fair" then both teams need to have those values being within 15% of each other. By MY calculations (feeble as they may be) it works out that both values are within 14% (coincidence that they are both within the same amount) - so the trade CAN work between just the 2 teams - sadly no 3rd party is required (as we are now the only one...) Of course this is the way I understand BYC to work, I'm 95% certain that I understand it, but if I don't them I'm happy to be rebuked!! ------------------
The Hornets take on 15.37mill in contracts and give up 17.775 (with EJones BYC status meaning it counts as 13.22mill) DrN-This is just a nitpicking, but let's break it down Hornets take on 15.37. 15.37 must be within 15%+100K of 13.22 (the amount they can take back) 13.22x1.15+.1=15.303....which is actually JUST short of 15.37 ---------------- Miami takes on 17.775. 17.775 must be within 15%+100K of the 15.37 they traded away. 15.37*1.15+.1=17.7755, which is just $500 (yes, 500 dollars) over the minimum amount. ------------------------------------------ So, if your numbers are correct (you may have rounded up/down a bit, that made the difference between in and out of the zone, and didn't feel like typing a long decimal). The deal isn't quite perfect. What I'm saying is, since Charlotte falls JUST outside, and Miami is barely over, slight tweaks would not suffice, as it'd tip the scale one way or another. Also, the numbers you used (presumably off a website) may, or may not be completely accurate, probably the latter, which causes other slight tweaks in the numbers. Either way, it'll be REALLY close if this is pulled off. Another rumor I just heard, on the radio from the editor of CBS SPORTSLINE.com is that if that rumored 4 team 21 player deal is pulled off, Charlotte will back out of THIS deal. ------------------ The more lefties on your team, the better. Collier is Seven Foot and Left Handed. How can you go wrong? Trade or bench Kenny Thomas.
Ah ok this makes sense now, thanks for the clarification. This is a major loophole in the CBA and real smooth tactic for moving BYC players. Thus, the key to moving a BYC player in a 2 team deal is just loading up players from both sides and boosting the salaries so that one team can be 15% higher than the other team which will account for 2.25 mil and then 15% away from another 2.25 mil which covers the whole BYC gap for a 9 mil player. This is very interesting, a team like Portland could then feasibly move Jermaine O'Neal somewhere besides Chicago. They could also possibly do the Brian Grant sign and trade with the Knicks w/o getting some team with cap room involved. This is a pretty creative cap loophole. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
