1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Nice Job Jack - 30 pts, 11 assists and 6 rebounds

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by SmeggySmeg, Mar 15, 2001.

  1. kbm

    kbm Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2001
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    1
    HeyPartner,

    It is really a mute point--you can do what you want, but when you say the rockets system, without any clarification, I am assume you mean the 4-1 flex system, no one that doesn't have prior knowledge of that system can form an opinion about your conclusions. I am guessing you want it that way since it gives you the advantage in the arguement. At any rate, the post was vague even in basketball terminology.

    ------------------
    I am an invisible man.
     
  2. kbm

    kbm Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2001
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    1
    Furthermore HeyPee,

    My position is that Mobley shoots too much and needs to learn to pass more. You seem to think that it is due to the system the rockets run rather than Mobley himself. I'll accept that because I'm a just a fan and don't have your knowledge of the game.

    But if it is the system (like you say), then the rockets need to change it so that Mobley does have passing options. I simply see no reason why the rockets live and die by Mobley, he is not that good yet. I agree he is our best option but that is just a stonger reason to create a system where the whole team is involved.


    ------------------
    I am an invisible man.
     
  3. cheshire

    cheshire Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,051
    Likes Received:
    396
    U know what, if and when we get C. Web all those whining about Stevie or Kit Cat or Rudy' mysterious ways with his rotation will fadeaway into the sunset... [​IMG]

    With all the moral victories and oh so close and yet so far episodes in this season, it will pay off when we come back with a vengeance next year... C. Web upfront... Hakeem coming back...This team has got too much potential, heart and talent to keep losing the way it has.

    BTW it makes u wonder maybe Cat is better off running the point when Chise is having a breather assuming Shandon starts.


    ------------------
    "The man who goes alone can start today; but he who travels with another must wait till the other is ready." -HDT
     
  4. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 1999
    Messages:
    14,887
    Likes Received:
    123
    Clutch,

    I am not getting touchy, i don't do touchy, remember when reading any Smeg post the reader must decide on how serious it is, that's your decision, personally it is tough to get erked by posts by myself and others such as Cat, when we have to swallow post like heave thread and constant criticisms of Mobes game.

    Also i would never say his game is perfect as you say he has all the weapons and the one area that needs improvement is his decision making and more specifically shot selection adn pass selection, but compared to two years ago he has made giant leaps in these areas which he gets no cred for. He is a scorer and scorers will have bad shooting nights and we all have to live with it, hopefully with each passing season he can continue to improve and the poor shooting game will decrease in number.

    I have never said you were a Mobley hater, just rather quick to judge single errors and shoot from the heart in the heat of the moment in the middle of games ie the air ball heave, remember you have lots of cred and influence with posters.

    He is not perfect but he is getting better and that for me is the key.

    Smeg

    ------------------
    "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
     
  5. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,517
    Likes Received:
    59,020
    I have never said Mobley doesn't shoot too much. I have only said Mobley passes out of the double team more than Francis.

    I have never said the system prevents Mobley from passing. I have said the system prevents Mobley from logging ASSISTS.

    Allow me to "Clarify":

    Cato and Rogers were main targets last year off of dishes of 2-Shakes. This year Rudy places Mo' at a midrange jumper position, and the slam cutters are not happening. Thus, Mobley has no DISH on 2 Shakes, he can only finish or throw into the corner or out front.

    Damn, explain to me exactly how I am trying to win an argument by Buckley methods of shooting over your head.

    2-Shakes is Rudy's term for that particular play. If you want to ask questions about the options of that play, find someone to answer them vs me. Is my attept getting in your way. The 4 out 1 Flex remains unconfirmed as their "general" system and is simply my best effort at describing what we do vs the "triangle" or Jerry Sloans pnr's.

    People use the Triangle and Sloans pnr offense in arguments, why can't I be ahead of the media and say our 4 out 1 Flex works. Why can tod the bod say that Rudy sucks because he cannot teach the Triangle, and I can't say the 4 out 1 Flex is equally effective and more suitable to us than the Triangle.

    Look, kbm, the moment people stop saying Phil Jackson and Sloan are great coaches, I will stop mentioning the merits of the 4 out 1 that Rudy is rolling out.
     
  6. kbm

    kbm Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2001
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    1
     
  7. gr8-1

    gr8-1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 1999
    Messages:
    7,918
    Likes Received:
    4
    The Cat, I agree with alot of what you said. Cat gets too much blame sometimes, and sometimes he gets too much credit.

    On Shandon, I think alot of us give him the benefit of the doubt becuz he's a very good defender, he took less money to come here, he's very complimentary of Houston and he gets frozen out of the offense at times. I really like Shandon.

    On Francis, I think he's helped us win alot of games. As for being clutch, he was very instrumental in helping us win late against the Warriors and the Hawks. I know that it is short-sighted of us to ignore his earlier performances, but judging by his recent output, he's been very solid in crunch time.

    ------------------
    "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
     
  8. verse

    verse Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 1999
    Messages:
    5,852
    Likes Received:
    610
    tpl:


    i did read your first post regarding cuttino. however, after The Cat rebutted DaDakota's post with stats proving cuttino's effectiveness, you responded with:

    i get the fact that you're not trying to roast the cat. but you do detract his claws with statements like that. just like with stackhouse (damn near every night) or like kevin garnett last night (27-16), one man can only do so much. just because the rox or the pistons or the twolves might lose a game, doesn't mean that one player's numbers were not good. and it doesn't mean they didn't "show up" against the big teams.

    i know you're not a true cat basher...that title is exclusively reserved for Almu and DaDakota.

    not a homer either, tpl. and i'd agree that they ALL have their flaws. it just reeks when people (DaDakota, Clutch, et al) can't give him his props w/o a qualifier.

    agreed 100%. heyp and i have discussed this in other threads many times. people can't accept that we have two dominant guards who are also best friends. [​IMG]

    though tempting, for the sake of retaining this particular threads integrity, we'll tackle that issue in separate threads. personally, i can't wait for the next "shandon is the best thing since sliced bread" thread.

    ****

    my angst was not directed so much at you TPL as it was towards the others mentioned. i just happened to use your quote. sorry for not being more clear...
     
  9. The Cat

    The Cat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,836
    Likes Received:
    5,434
    Despite the comparisons I've made in this thread, I very much agree with this statement. We have the best backcourt in the NBA and I love to watch them play. However, comparisons are often the best way to get your point across to people, and my point all along has been the double standards people have toward these two players. On a night like last night, when Cat was so great, so many people in this thread cannot complement him without a qualifier to support their own ego. And often times people have no problem whatsoever with Steve doing some of the same things people crucify Cuttino for doing. I'd just like to see everyone judged on equal status, and one of the best ways to show people that they aren't judged equally is to compare the reaction to one player (Cat's) positives and mistakes to that of another player, preferably a star, on the team. I very much wish everyone could accept the fact we have two great guards and would drop this. But since it'll be a cold day in hell before that happens, I'm just attempting to use Francis as a method to show the poor judgment of some of the Cuttino bashers.

    ------------------
    "We're not settling for just getting in the playoffs." "We want a higher seed. There's no doubt. We expect to get in."-- Steve Francis

    President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club!

    Draftsource.net
    ClutchTown.com
     
  10. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 1999
    Messages:
    22,950
    Likes Received:
    33,698
    Please find the quote where I said Mobley should play like this every night and average 11 assists?

    Heavy drinking, indeed.

    Don't get so touchy man... you might want to read my <a href="http://www.clutchcity.net/game.cfm?gameID=148">recap of the game</a>... I think Mobley is praised highly. I also am not critical of Mobley for missing shots... I have been critical of him for taking bad shots, i.e. bad decisions, hence the "heave" post.

    My other point was when Mobley goes 2-13, I don't see you starting these sarcastic, smarter-than-thou posts, so I assume you think he went 30-11-6 again.

    What I do find incredibly annoying however is watching these ridiculous threads surface, started by Smeg and The Cat always, to try to rub a big win in Rockets fans' faces simply because they haven't bought all of the Cuttino fun products. I mean you make it sound like we were rooting for Cuttino and the Rockets to lose it... unreal.

    I just can not believe some can't have an honest discussion regarding some of Cuttino's problems without flipping out.

    I have made my feelings on Mobley emphatically clear, no matter how much heypartner likes to make it sound like I run from the discussion. Remember Charles Barkley's quote on the Trailblazers a few years back? "Run like deer, jump like deer, think like deer".

    That's how I feel about Cuttino Mobley.

    Incredible first step, amazing quickness, beautiful finisher, potential star... but the dude has faults and one of them is decision-making. He does not play smart basketball some times. He gets the ball and he is going to shoot.... whether he's 4 or 40 feet from the basket. He has always had that problem and fortunately he's improving. And I have always said I hope he continues to improve. Do any of you remember Rudy T literally screaming at Mobley and yanking him from games for selfishness in his rookie season? He had guts and tenacity then, as he does now, but he was much worse. Some of you make it sound like the guy has been King Kong his whole career (that has yet to span a third year).

    He had 11 assists tonight and that was awesome... huge night... but you know, he played 58 minutes the other night and never set up a teammate once for a score. Don't you think a guy who gets as many isolations as Cuttino and plays a football game's worth of time should pass it around once or twice?

    Yet verse says he's been passing for some time now. The game against the Clippers he shot 14 free throws and 15 shots from the field on top of that and never once made an assist.

    Let me put it this way: If this were a Portland Trailblazer board, I'd be saying Rasheed Wallace, while a talent, has a serious behavior problem and it's killing the team.

    On the other hand, after every Portland win that Wallace contributes to and did not get kicked out, Smeg and others would be posting a new thread entitled, "See? Told you so."

    Fine. Wallace had a great game and Portland won... doesn't take away from the fact they got a problem, and it could bite their ass at any time.

    I just wish Mobley would play smarter. He's got all this talent yet he's got the tunnel vision of the kid busted by the Fun Police. I love the guy and root for the guy just as I do all the rest of the Rockets, but I've always been open about the fact that he does frustrate me some times.

    Anyhow... no matter. I'll just post this again for the 50th time and then have to listen to Smeg and others call me a "Mobley hater". I'm just glad Mobley had a great game so you know I'm not just posting this out of frustration.

    ------------------
    NOTHING BUT .NET
    CLUTCHCITY.NET
     
  11. Almu

    Almu Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    2,387
    Likes Received:
    40
    Its like Tod the Bod says. One good game by Mobley where he makes the right decisions and takes the right shots and everyone forgets how dumb most of his playmaking and shot selections have been.

    Like Cato, I expect improvement. Especially from Mobley who is going on his third year. Yea, he can have great games. But every time I see him take one of those crooked, off the balance shots and b**** and complain thinking he gets fouled each and everytime, I want to trade his ass to the Middle East for a camel, some oil and a cup of hot desert sand.

    ------------------
    Sleepless in the Bronx
     
  12. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,517
    Likes Received:
    59,020
    kbm,

    just for clarification: it not "so-called 2 shakes", it IS 2 Shakes. kbm, that play has been mentioned in quotes and several of us have heard Rudy yell it out. Same with 24-High and Y-Zip.

    Cuttino is being coached to run that play exactly the way he runs and when he runs it. CBFC talks about objectivity. That is my whole point, too. The so-called "Mobley realists" here (as CBFC puts it), are not anymore objective than me, and several, several others here. When you objectively realize that Rudy tells Cuttino to run 2-Shakes, and the coaches tell him he must shoot over single coverage when it backs up to prevent drives to be successful over time, that's when it hits you. Cuttino is not selfish. He may shoot while moving, too. But he can, and the coaches tell him to do that, too. We have objective quotes on this.

    You may not like 2-shakes (I don't particularly like it), but Cat is not selfish for running a play just like the coached designed it.
     
  13. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,517
    Likes Received:
    59,020
    No one forgets that you can't watch most of the games. No one forgets that you are basing most of your stuff on last years memories. Cuttino has been improving all season. Yet imo, Cuttino was no different last night (except fastbreaks) that any other night. Please explain to me what you saw him do different.

    In fact, anyone and everyone explain to me what he did different. He had a good shooting night, but he converted same questionable poor shot selections, like he heaves up every game. And he split a double team with a dribble through his legs that was just silly, and CONVERTED that just floored all the fans surrounding me in a joyous moment of fandom. Last night he converted. He didn't pass more than normal (except on breaks).

    Tell me why you call this (one good game) like he did something different. Tell me what he did differently.

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited March 17, 2001).]
     
  14. kbm

    kbm Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2001
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    1
    HeyPartner,

    Not sure the coaches have taught him 2 shakes exactly that way and you really can't know either. All we can do is watch the game and the coaches for clues. I do know cuttino has been pulled from games in the past because of his selfishness. The year we had Dream, Barkley, and Pippen. All better options then him in the clutch. You have to wonder if a player like that, in his rookie season, with three of the fifty greatest players of all-time, can fuction as just a role player.

    My point has always been framed in the context of beyond this season. What will cuttino do when, for example, we sign someone like Webber? I for one think cuttino will hurt our team then. Say, in the 7th game of the championship, he shoots over three defenders trying to be the hero.

    Everyone seems to think cuttino has become a less selfish player. I think that cuttino is still selfish but that the better players around him have just moved on or gotten to old to perform the way they use to.

    Just last week, when cuttino was asked about dream's injury, (I am paraphasing) he said it would hurt the team but that he and Franics are the players who will cause the team to win or lose games.



    ------------------
    I am an invisible man.
     
  15. Almu

    Almu Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    2,387
    Likes Received:
    40
    HeyPartner,

    I watch every game. I got Direct TV and my new baby does not hinder me from seeing what I see neither does my lack of sleep.

    Lets just agree to disagree. I am not going to be blind to Cuttino, his bad shot selections and his b****ing after each one just because I am a Rocketfan and want them to win night in and night out.

    You are right. He has improved. His first step is better. His shooting touch is better. His stamina is better. His body has gotten bigger.

    But, like Barkley said...Run like a deer, jump like a deer and think like a deer.

    That is where my problem with Cuttino lies. And what is between his head will serve him better than all the other stuff. And for 3.5 years, there has been no consistant improvement.

    ------------------
    Sleepless in the Bronx
     
  16. crash5179

    crash5179 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2000
    Messages:
    16,469
    Likes Received:
    1,297
    Almu, this is only Cats second full year. While last year was his second in the league, his first was in the strike shortand season that did not get started until late January.

    He appears to have improved a great deal in his shot selection and all around game since he has become a starter. At least to me. I like what Cat brings to the game.

    I keep hearing how selfish Cat is. Does anybody know just exactly how many shots a game Cat takes? Well here it is: only 15 shots a game. He is shooting .431 from the floor after being in a slump for the last couple of weeks.

    You want to talk about ball hawgs and selfish players, hows this:

    Allan Iverson 25.3 shots a game .421 f/g%
    Jerry Stackhouse 23.6 shots a game .401 f/g%
    Gary Payton 20 shots a game .447 f/g%

    Mobley takes most of his shots at the end of games because that is what he is told to do. Every team needs someone that wants the ball at the end of the game. And the good thing about Mobley is that he gets to the line so much. If he does not make his shot there is an excellent chance he will get to the line. That adds an extra deminsion that Mobes twice as deadly. How many times have we seen Mobes blow past someone only to get fouled because the other player reached at him as he streaked by.

    For someone that is just completing his second full year I'd say Mobes is doing pretty well.



    ------------------
     
  17. ZRB

    ZRB Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    6,818
    Likes Received:
    4
    I'd just like to say that I resent being mentioned with the Mobley haters. I do not hate Mobley, and I think he has really improved his play. When I criticize Mobley, a lot of it is also directed towards Rudy T for diferring to him so much. I criticized Mobley for taking so many shots in the fourth quarter of the Phoenix game, but I realize that if Rudy had wanted Francis to get the ball, he probably would have. Mobley plays the way he does because Rudy has done nothing but talk about what a great player he is, and how he is the team's go-to guy and so on. Anyway, I don't want to dig into Rudy too much, because he is right that Mobley is a great player.
    I don't know how anyone could criticize him after such a brilliant game. With Francis gone, Mobley became the main play-maker for the team, and he performed brilliantly. He played probably his best game of the season, and led the Rockets to a big win. Its rediculous to bash him for previous games just after he has a monster performance. I wish he would take less shots, and pass more, but he really has improved in the last two months. Give him credit.

    ------------------
    Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon is the greatest player in the history of basketball. If you disagree, you are not a Rocket fan.
     
  18. DieHard Rocket

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2000
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    I'm sorry, although I love the Chuckster and all I cannot seem to take anything he says very serious. And who exactly knows what a deer is thinking? (don't answer that) [​IMG]



    ------------------
     

Share This Page