I don't have the foggiest idea why you guys are arguing like Mobley did something different, last night. imo, this is not a good example of Mobley passing more than normal. I believe, as stated in other threads last night, that this assist total had very little to do with Mobley. New Jersey played 2 Shakes unlike any other team that I've ever seen play it. They left one player away from Mobley open (Mo'). That was stupid defense. The only thing this game shows about Mobley, in my opinion, is that he doesn't attack double teams. If those early doubles didn't hammer that point home, I don't know what will. He always passes when 2 Shakes is doubled...always. But he can never get an assist usually off the double teams, because the open man is 2 swing passes away. When he wasn't doubled and drove, or when he ran the pick n role, he passed it no more or no less than normal, from my view. I think he passed more on the secondary break than normal though.
HP, Didn't you think he tried to dribble around the double teams thrown at him more than usual though, on 2 shakes? Was New Jersey just throwing a weak double team at him? I thought he got quite a few assists off breaking the double team. We've talked about how Francis attacks double teams more than Cat, but I think that it would be nice to see him attack the double teams every once in a while like he did yesterday. The way teams are defending 2 shakes now, is that they are guarding the corner on the 3rd pass, and forcing the reciever of the 2nd pass to make a play. Maybe if Cat dribbled it out of those double teams sometimes, he could hit the man in the corner for the open 3, or find our big men cutting. ------------------
HP... As usual, correct again. Only difference between tonight and other games was how they left Mo wide open for the 18 footer several times instead of making the Rockets swing the ball around. But, like I said people are looking for the negatives in Cuttino, and like I said this was somewhat similar to how he does play every night. Some never watch how good of a passer he is, completely ignoring things like that. The only reason people consider last night's performance to be so different is Mobley now has the stat sheet to back him up, and it is hard to argue with cold hard facts. ------------------ "We're not settling for just getting in the playoffs." "We want a higher seed. There's no doubt. We expect to get in."-- Steve Francis President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club! Draftsource.net ClutchTown.com
This is a classic battle between rabid fandom and objectivity. For instance, I am going to conjecture that The Cat's perspective is a little bit colored by the fact that he is a big Cuttino fan. Why am I making this leap of logic? Because his fricking username is "The Cat." This is my clue to the fact that he is a big Cuttino fan. If someone told me that Chucky Brown has even one flaw, I'd argue it till I was blue in the face. It does no good because I see basketball through the perspective of Chucky Brown, not vice versa. Same with Rocket Fans, Cuttino Fans, etc. It's cool. But Clutch, don't expect them to buy logic. Its an emotional thing. But Clutch, your post on this thread was classic regardless of its ineffectiveness. So true -- you can critique a player without hating him. Coaches do it everyday. Thats what we "Cuttino-Realists" do. You have to, its how people get better. Anyone who thinks Cuttino does not need to improve some of his shot selection is blinded by fandom, in my opinion. Jesus, what could be a more obvious flaw with the team? People who thought Barkley did not need to worry about launching threes were similarly blinded (as were people who thought he was worth trading for in the first place, but thats a different story ...). Fandom is fine, but is happens to be wrong unless it is Chucky Brown fandom. Barkley's threes did not make him was not a bad player or guy, but it screwed with the Rockets offense big-time. Just like Cuttinos decreasingly chronic lack of passing. In my opinion, you happen to be doing God's work by sticking up for Mobley. But do not confuse our frustration with Mobley with dislike of the man or his skills. We're on your side here, but sometimes being critical is a sure sign of affection and support. Seriously, no one needs to be told Cuttino is good, and gloating about it is preaching to the choir and being a little ugly about it. CBFC ------------------ Join the Chucky Brown Fan Club
tpl, My tape failed last night, so I can't give confirmation. Sometimes they bring the 24-High pick late, and it looks like the ISO. He might have split the double once in the 1st. I do recall that amazing dribble between his legs and between two defenders, but was that collapsing D or a true double team. That's why I need tape. What he never does is goes baseline against a double, like Francis. I don't like anyone to do that. They idea you state about him dribble to the key to reshape the offense positioning on the court and allowing someone to take a new passing lane is fine. Francis does that, too. My feeling though is why not just run the pnr if you want to do that. There are a lot of options that 2-Shakes offers the first person who gets the pass. Mobley doesn't need to be dribbling to that position. I'd rather see the pass to Francis and Mobley cutting backdoor for a pass or a screen on the opposite block. My bottomline feeling is: on ISOs, the iso man should not second guess himself on whether to take on a double team. He should just worry about shooting or driving and dishing. If the double comes, swing it and let the system take over. That said, I still hope to see us run 2-Shakes less and less.
Put me down as a HATER! I support the rockets but Cuttino, the only reason I cheer for him at all is because he is a rocket. I wonder how many will continue to support his stupid shot selection, me first attitude, when the rockets really get a go to man like Webber . Let me quote Bill Walton, NOOOOOOOOOOOO! ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited March 16, 2001).]
I certainly agree with this: "Anyone who thinks Cuttino does not need to improve some of his shot selection is blinded by fandom, in my opinion. Jesus, what could be a more obvious flaw with the team?" He does need to improve his shot selection, and I haven't seen a single post in this thread arguing that point. What riles me up are posts like: "If he played team ball like this every night, I would gladly retract my criticisms." DaDakota imples that on most nights, Mobley doesn't play team ball. "Don't you think a guy who gets as many isolations as Cuttino and plays a football game's worth of time should pass it around once or twice?" Clutch implies that Mobley never passes. DaD and Clutch were NOT talking about shot selection, there were talking about how doesn't play team ball and never passes. This is what I take offense at. Cat is not a selfish player. He wants to win, and he does what Rudy tells him.
I never thought I'd say this... but I'd say Mo's rebounding, Cato's lack of hands or skills at all, KT's inability to finish, Shandon's inability to produce offensively this year, and even Steve's inability at times to produce in the clutch are all as or more obvious than Cuttino's problems. I never said the guy was perfect. But his criticism goes far and beyond that of the other players who deserve it just as much or more. CBFC... sometimes that is correct, including posters like yourself, Clutch mostly, Tacoma, etc. But Clutch is not even close to the only person I am saying this too. This is more directed to those who do dislike the man and his skills, such as pooh222, etc. You cannot tell me that all of the criticisms of Cuttino this year (the thousands it seems like) are all completely just. There are many that are completely ridiculous and unjust. And if you are going to say those things towards my Rockets when they are completely undeserved, I do think I have a right to respond when they have a good game. So many times we tend to confuse trying to find certain flaws with people with being realistic. Cat's not perfect-- I never said he was. He has flaws. But the more flaws you find doesn't make you necessarily more realistic. For instance, you can completely overexaggerate and look too hard for flaws with certain players, and imho Clutch and others do that to an extent with Cuttino. I certainly don't see how Clutch deserves the label of a Cuttino realist anymore than someone like myself, verse, Smeg, etc. ------------------ "We're not settling for just getting in the playoffs." "We want a higher seed. There's no doubt. We expect to get in."-- Steve Francis President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club! Draftsource.net ClutchTown.com
HP, You notice how horrible and slow Mo is at setting the pick on 24 high? I see Cat have to yell at him sometimes just to come set the pick. Alot of times the pick doesnt even come, which forces Cat to go one on one. ------------------
Very well said, CBrownFanClub. I'd like to think I go back the farthest on this board as Mobley supporter. I remember going toe to toe many a time with Dreamshake99 back when Mobley was just a rookie. Still, nobody is perfect, and Mobley can certainly use some improvement in his decision making skills department. That being said though, doesn't detract from the fact that only a slight improvement would make him our obvious number one option. Still, those of you who are offering constructive criticism, such as yourself, are only being objective. Of course, those who just plain hate him are either Laker fans or complete morons. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
Ooops, sorry Kbm...I guess I should have read your post before calling out all of the morons. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
Why dont we concentrate on what Cuttino needs to do to improve his game. He passes out of the high double team well, and attacks it occasionally well also. I am satisfied with his growing recognition of this. The fact is if he is going to be doubled high, someone else is open. I am a little concerned that the first person Cuttino passes it to does not make the next pass or next drive quick enough, thus leaving enough time for the defense to rotate. Cuttino needs to drive the ball early and strong. Cuttino's game thrives off of his drives. You rarely see him just go out on fire from the outside. He usually throws up bricks until he gets a few drives into the lane, gets his rythm, and then you see him start hitting threes and other outside shots. Cuttino (Steve too) needs to learn about a mid-range game. Often with him it is either hold it for abit then shoot, or drive all the way to the basket. While his passing out of the quick double teams is good, Cuttino rarely passes when driving to the basket. With his amazing quick first step he should have more assists than most shooting guards do. HE rarely passes it once he starts going to the basket. Did anyone else see that play last night where he starts to the right, then I think Eschmeyer comes over to double, Cuttino goes around his back, with Eschmeyer somehow not stealing the ball and then Cuttino drives to the hole over a third defender to score. Granted he scored, but someone else had to be open. Finally, defense can always use improvement (by the whole team too) All in all, Cuttino has enough talent to be a fantastically exciting player, and he does many things really really well. Scoring in bunches being his most polished talent. If he continues to improve upon the above skills, he will be an amazing all around player. ------------------
I guess that means me. But I am not a Lakers fan--I am a Rockets fan! I do, however, dislike current and fomer rockets. If that makes me a Lakers fan, then so be it. As far as moron goes, wait until a better option than mobley comes around, then see how go mobley's judgement is. It's been nearly three years, and he still takes poor shots. It isn't just a matter of youth or whatever, it is mobley. What you see is what you get. I hope you can live with that come playoff time, next year and beyond. ------------------ I am an invisible man.
Look guys, my only thing is, I feel the board doesn't give Stevie enough credit. Cat played a GREAT game and is prolly a top 8-10 SG. But Stevie has been having alot of 24/6/8 games in the second half, yet I rarely see a post about Steve's all around game. I guess, it is already assumed that Steve is a very good PG. Guys, we all root for Cuttino. If you don't, you're not really rooting for the Rockets. Cat has been clutch for most of the year. Steve has been pretty clutch as of late also. ------------------ "norm, would you like to buy an indian scalp ? This deal isn't gonna make or break me Norm, so don't jerk me around." Harry Carey "Norm, if I had a mohawk scalp, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you."
I somewhat disagree with this, in a way. What he never does is pass back out front, which I don't really like anyhow (part of the reason I don't like 2-Shakes that much). I disagree slightly, because his lack of dishing is more a system thing, imo, than a player decision thing. Last year, Rogers and Cato where frequent recipients of dishes for slams. For some reason, the cutters seem to have stopped in the way we run the play now. I think they is partly due to Cato and Rogers getting no playing time, and Mo' being positioned as a mid-range shooter rather than a cutter. In my strong opinion, Mobley does not have dish opportunities once he drives, like he did last year. Usually, his best option is passing to the corner man.
HeyPartner, Knowledge of basketball is great, but to most of us here all it is is jargon. Instead of saying such and such is a product of how the rockets run a play, why dont you just explain the play in terms of the rockets concept of it. It is hard to follow your aguement otherwise. I am reminded of when Ali was being interviewed by William F. Buckley, every time Buckley used a word that Ali didn't understand he would ask Buckley to explain. Eventually, Buckley lost his advantage. ------------------ I am an invisible man.
Verse and The Cat, I do not hate Cuttino, but I am critical of him because he is so prevelant in the offense. I am also Critical of Steve, and Mo, and KT, etc...etc.. In no way should you take my criticisms to mean I don't cheer for them. However, if you think that I will not criticize him or any Rocket when they play stupid, then you are sorely mistaken. As for qualifying any positive thing I say about Cuttino....I just see enormous room for improvemnt. Cat had a GREAT game last night. DaDakota ------------------ If you like RTS games, check out this one. www.frontierwars.com coming soon to a PC near you.
I agree. There are less passing options. And that has made it all cyclical. Now when someone is wide open Cuttino doesnt remember to pass. ------------------
First off, I was talking to TPL who is following and contributing to explaining things in system terms. Secondly, there are quite a few lurkers (and quite members) who have emailed me to continue using bball terminology, since that is the only way for them to follow along without seeing the games. Thirdly, "why don't you just explain the play in terms of the rockets concept of it", uh, isn't that what I'm doing. Do you see anyone else on this BBS using real names for Rockets plays? (D) what I am doing in this thread is not an "argument" anymore than Clutch's recap is an argument. In this thread, I am just trying to report what I saw. Lastly, despite your out of context Buckley anecdote, I'm sticking with real names for plays, and accurate bball terminology for the sole hope that eventually a real scout or insider will respond. I am not doing this to show off. It is a simple matter of using layman vs professional terms in order to attract the professionals to the wondrous bbs.
heypee: So, for clarification, you won't start calling 2 Shakes the "dribble the ball, penetrate the lane, and pass to the open man" play? ------------------ "That's been a lifelong dream of mine." -Vince Carter, after laying it in on a breakaway, much to the Vancouver crowd's displeasure.
