1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Nice Job Jack - 30 pts, 11 assists and 6 rebounds

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by SmeggySmeg, Mar 15, 2001.

  1. tacoma park legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    1
    Yea Rockets03, but who cares if he has a big game in losses? It's all for none in that case, which was what I was pointing out.

    How many big games has Jerry Stackhouse had, that were all for none because his team lost?

    He still hasn't proven he can have big games ,on a consistent basis, against good teams when the Rockets WIN.
    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited March 16, 2001).]
     
  2. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2000
    Messages:
    18,050
    Likes Received:
    1,271
    This is a T-E-A-M. No more..no less. When they win, it should be a TEAM win..when its a loss, it's a TEAM loss.
    It does no good to blame any *one* man for losses nor in most cases should any one man get credit for a win.

    One thing about this team that makes me really excited is that on any given nite the "go-to" guy can be either Stevie, Jack, Mooch, Mo. Sometimes all in one game (see Tues nite) When one guy isn't hitting, someone else steps up..
    now if they could just get their team D goin more consistently.

    Winning is all that is important!

    Gotta Believe!!!

    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by Rockets2K (edited March 16, 2001).]
     
  3. JR

    JR Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    10
    hey tacoma, i'm not sure if you saw this, but in the second quarter Cat hit a three and then ran down the court complaining to the ref about not getting a foul call and while he was turning, still complaining, marbury (i think) threw the ball to newman (i think, whoever cat was guarding), who nailed a wide open 3 while Cat was talking and looking at the ref, standing about 3 or 4 feet in front of his man.

    great game for Cat nonetheless, of course, but I had to point that out.

    ------------------
     
  4. Toast

    Toast Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2001
    Messages:
    3,755
    Likes Received:
    10
    Yeah, I'm with JR here.

    His game was far from "flawless." That time when he drained a 3, then complained the whole way down that he was fouled, and then his man drains a 3 OVER Cat while Cat's paying attention to a conversation with the ref ... that left a bad taste in my mouth.

    True, he had 11 assists this game, which is very commendable. But that equals his total assists for the previous 5 games. So it kinda sticks out more than it blends in.

    However, I was very impressed with the way he handled the offense down the stretch. He would take the ball down to the wing, and they would keep sending Mo's man for the double team, so he would just find an open Mo who fortunately drained the shot. Hey, if it ain't broke don't fix it. We milked that 'til they finally caught on, and Mo swung it around to Moochie, with the same results. If you wanna talk assists, how about Mo, too? I think almost all of Cato's points were off feeds from Mo.

    Excellent team effort. I love to see the Rockets finding the open man. If Mobley can keep it up, I would love it!

    ------------------
    Founding Father of the
    Refs Suck Club
     
  5. verse

    verse Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 1999
    Messages:
    5,852
    Likes Received:
    610
    i can't believe you guys. let's start at the top...

    clutch:

    you say he should play like this every night. the offense ran almost exclusively thru him, clutch. and if he were to do the same thing with francis in the game, you'd have hordes of cat roasters (dadakota, almu, et al) complaining about how he is stunting steve's growth. that, or how he needs to defer to steve. you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

    truth is, clutch, he has been passing the ball for quite some time now. now, if you want him to have 11 assists per game, i'm going to wonder if you've been doing some heavy drinking. what shooting guard do you know that averages 11 assists? what exactly do you want? another point guard or a shooting guard?

    DaDakota:

    it must pain you to give cat a compliment. every time you do, you have to qualify it. you're worse than ZRB. you can't give a positive post with qualifying it or tossing in a negative word. i don't ever want to see you criticize ZRB again.

    also, you said...

    TheCat pulled your freakin' card and showed you cuttino's numbers against those teams - highlighting how ridiculous your position is. what do you and tacoma park legend say? "oh yea, but we still lost."

    bullsh!t. so in other words, you don't care how well he does. if we don't win, he still had a bad game. he still sux. your reasoning is a joke, i'm sorry. he does show up in big games. look at TheCat's post for further proof. unfortunately, the last time i checked, it takes more than one player showing up to win. blame that on the rest of the team, not cuttino.


    you say "if only cuttino could keep it up"? how about "if only mo would keep shooting the open shot" or "if only walt would be consistent" or "if only shandon would just, oh i don't know, shoot the damn ball" (by the way, shandon was TERRIBLE last night, but that's another topic altogether.)

    those are all factors in how many assists cat gets. those are all factors in whether or not he passes the ball. but you guys refuse to acknowledge that, instead jumping on the cat roasting bandwagon.

    ------------------
    Lt. Roastabotch reporting for duty!
     
  6. The Cat

    The Cat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,836
    Likes Received:
    5,434
    Verse may get my nomination for post of the year... absolutely a great post. 100% right on all counts.

    Only thing I'll add is what I've said earlier in this thread... if you can discount stats and production based on wins and losses (which is to a large extent unfair-- as good as a player may be he can't determine the talent around him), you have to be fair and do it to everyone. That includes Steve Francis. I guarantee you, if some troll came in here and said Steve couldn't play against the top teams, many of you guys would go immediately to the numbers and production and not look at the wins and losses. Is that wrong? Probably not-- I'm not saying that. But you guys set so many double standards it's crazy. Say what you want, but you know if I had come in this thread bashing Stevie, you know you would discount the record when showing production. You know it. I like how statements made by Steve about carrying the team show "maturity" according to many, then almost identical sentiments by Cat show "immaturity and selfishness" according to the same people. I guess a better way to put it is like this: You guys are looking for the negatives in Mobley. You guys are looking for the positives in Francis. If at all possible, please try and look at them from the same light.

    ------------------
    "We're not settling for just getting in the playoffs." "We want a higher seed. There's no doubt. We expect to get in."-- Steve Francis

    President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club!

    Draftsource.net
    ClutchTown.com
     
  7. verse

    verse Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 1999
    Messages:
    5,852
    Likes Received:
    610
    gracias, el gato.

    and another thing...

    if kelvin "hands of stone" cato could catch a pass cuttino would have AT LEAST 2 more assists.
     
  8. RocksMillenium

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    Messages:
    10,018
    Likes Received:
    508
    Obviously Cat doesn't play like this everynight, nobody in the league does. But he does enough to help us win, and that is all that matters. I don't understand why people have to take shots a poster who praises Mobley. And lets put it this way, if somebody says something like "How about that Mobley bashers" or something like that, and you take it personal, then you must be a basher, or dislike the guy for some reason.

    ------------------
    "I have a scale at home and it only goes up so far, I love that scale!"
    - Charles Barkley
    TNT Studios

    [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited March 16, 2001).]
     
  9. DieHard Rocket

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2000
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    That is exactly right...many people in here always have to say something bad about Mobley no matter what the outcome of the game. I, for one, try and support both of them equally, because I love watching both of these guys play. I think both of them should get the ball plenty of times late in the game, not just one guy the whole way. And another thing...everyone is always criticizing Mobley because he gets on the officials every now and then...I've got news for ya: every player in the NBA in nearly every game is going to get on the refs at some point. At least Mobley isn't getting techs every night over arguing no-calls like some of the other players(Wallace) in the NBA are. Francis and Mobley are both very talented players and they both need to be given a chance by both the fans and the coaching staff.


    ------------------
     
  10. alaskansnowman

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    1,961
    Likes Received:
    9
    by the way, shandon was TERRIBLE last night, but that's another topic altogether.)


    He wasn't that bad. His offense wasn't that great, but it wasn't terrible. And he had some strong defense, especially towards the end when he stuffed Van Ho. This was a typical game for Shandon i'd say... not too great offensively, but great defensively.

    ------------------
    PrEsident of The Danforth Langhford FAN CLUB... He IS our future All-Star Small Forward
     
  11. The Cat

    The Cat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,836
    Likes Received:
    5,434
    To even further expand on that, for all the critism Cuttino receives about his so called whining to the officials, Francis ironically has the 2nd most T's in the league I believe. You sure don't hear anyone complaining about Stevie and the officials...

    ------------------
    "We're not settling for just getting in the playoffs." "We want a higher seed. There's no doubt. We expect to get in."-- Steve Francis

    President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club!

    Draftsource.net
    ClutchTown.com
     
  12. verse

    verse Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 1999
    Messages:
    5,852
    Likes Received:
    610
    no, he was terrible.

    in the fourth quarter alone, i counted at least three possessions where the infamous cuttino "ballhog" mobley [​IMG] passed shandon the ball off the drive for a "check-the-wind-i'm-so-open" three pointer. what does shandon do? three drives (for no points).

    another sequence (in the fourth quarter), shandon decides it's better to play volleyball than to play basketball. dude just kept tipping the ball over the basket (i'm talkin' 2 or 3 times) instead of just grabbing the daggum ball!

    but hey, this thread isn't about the bbs' most overrated rocket. this is about the bbs' most overpolarized rocket.

    ------------------
    Lt. Roastabotch reporting for duty!
     
  13. verse

    verse Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 1999
    Messages:
    5,852
    Likes Received:
    610
    The Cat:

    oh Nooooooo. you won't hear about that around these parts. you know why? because steve doesn't get his techs for talking to the refs. he gets his for smacking the dog **** out of the backboards. that's MUCH more mature. [​IMG]

    ------------------
    Lt. Roastabotch reporting for duty!
     
  14. DieHard Rocket

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2000
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,167
    Yes, but a lot of Steve's T's came from hanging on the rim and tapping the backboard every time he exploded for a dunk early in the season. I still do not see how tapping the backboard is seen as taunting...it is the stupidest rule in the league.


    ------------------
     
  15. verse

    verse Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 1999
    Messages:
    5,852
    Likes Received:
    610
    you know, maybe cat's "talking to the refs" is the reason why he has so many free throws. lord knows it isn't because of his god given physical ability. [jab-n-ribs]ain't that right ya'll???[/jab-n-ribs]

    ------------------
    Lt. Roastabotch reporting for duty!
     
  16. tacoma park legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    1
    verse,

    If you think I'm trying to insult Cuttino, then you need to read a little bit more into my posts.

    I think Cat has taken on so much criticism around here, that if someone points out a small flaw in his game now, some people go ballistic defending him.


    Maybe you didn't see me say he played a flawless game?

    I'm about as pro Cuttino as they get.I'm a season ticket holder, and get sick of people at games who bash him, so don't try and label me a Cat basher.

    I'm just not a homer, who thinks some player shouldn't be subjected to criticism. EVERY player on the rockets have their flaws, and I could go into them if I wanted, but we're talking about Cat, and him alone.

    I find it funny that people always like to bring Francis into the equation and make it a Cat vs Steve thing.

    If you really want me to critique all the players on the rockets, including Francis, I will.

    As for Shandon, he had one of the bigger plays of the game, with the block against Van Horn, that was HUGE.

    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited March 16, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited March 16, 2001).]
     
  17. jamcracker

    jamcracker Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    0
    "He had 11 assists tonight and that was awesome... huge night... but you know, he played 58 minutes the other night and never set up a teammate once for a score. Don't you think a guy who gets as many isolations as Cuttino and plays a football game's worth of time should pass it around once or twice?"

    The assist column in the box score cannot be the sole determinant of a player's passing ability. I am 100% sure I saw Cat throw some passes on Tuesday. I am 100% sure that some of these passes were successful and worthwhile.

    Is it possible to pass the ball without getting an assist? Yes, I believe it is. Is it possible to pass the ball successfully and set up teammates without getting an assist?

    When Cat gets doubled, he usually starts the ball around the horn. Sometimes, we can throw the ball all the way around the horn to an open baseline 3 pt shooter. Cat has no chance for an assist in these situations, even though he is passing effectively.

    Just because Cat doesn't get assists because he starts the ball around the horn, that doesn't mean he can't pass or that he's selfish.
     
  18. The Cat

    The Cat Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    20,836
    Likes Received:
    5,434
    What I find incredibly annoying however is seeing ridiculous topics after every Rockets loss, trying to blame all of it or most of it on Cuttino Mobley. I know people don't want the Rockets to lose... but I will say that there are many people who would prefer Francis to have the 30 points, 11 assists, 6 rebound game instead of Cuttino for the sake of their own ego. I can't speak for Smeg, but as for me personally, threads like this aren't half as ridiculous as the ones like "Nice heave Cuttino" and others. You and others make it sound like the loss is all Cuttino's fault at times... that to me is unreal. I can tell you and the BBS one thing-- if you guys don't like my after game "I told you so" positive type threads, then stop with the after game "It's all so and so's fault, we/he sucks" type threads.

    One of the best things Cuttino does is passing the ball around quickly once the double team comes. He set up baskets tons of times. The only problem is that once there are no hockey assists in basketball, and the pass to set up the assist gets no credit in the box score. And with most Cuttino bashers, they are so stubborn in their dislike for him that they don't take the time to acknowledge and watch all the little things he does in the game.

    I never remember Rudy yanking Cuttino for selfishness in his rookie season, and I watched almost every single game that season. And if Rudy's decisions are always correct and evidence to support arguments, then how about Rudy's quote earlier this year about Cuttino being one of the top players in the NBA? Cuttino is a shooting guard, and if you'd watch the rest of the NBA some, he does no different than most elite SGs. He knows his role, and does it well.

    Clutch, I know you have a good understanding of the game. But I seriously doubt you do above pretty much every analyst and fan around these days. If you think the problem we have (in your opinion and not mine) with Cuttino shooting too much is even remotely near the problem Portland has with Rasheed, don't you think someone around the league would be talking about it besides you and a few other posters at this site? Portland's own coach even has to bench Rasheed at times when he sees his emotions running too high... have you seen Rudy pull Cat this year for shooting too much? To compare whatever problem you say Cat has to Rasheed is ridiculous, and completely overstretching it. And to compare these threads to saying me and Smeg would start these threads when Wallace did well is completely stretching it as well.

    I just cannot believe that some can't have an honest discussion regarding some of Cuttino's strength's without adding some negative statement with it to soothe their own ego's. This isn't really directed at you Clutch-- but to several others around the BBS (you know who you are). Personally, I just want equal criticism. Many of the same problems you complain about with Cuttino occur with Steve, Shandon, Mo, and the rest of the team. But do they ever get bashed for these things like Cuttino does? No!!! I've never said Cuttino is perfect. However, if you feel the need to criticize, do it to everyone. They all have their flaws, believe it or not including Steve Francis. But none of the other players flaws' are emphasized remotely as much as those with Cuttino.

    ------------------
    "We're not settling for just getting in the playoffs." "We want a higher seed. There's no doubt. We expect to get in."-- Steve Francis

    President of the Mo Taylor and Jason Collier fan club!

    Draftsource.net
    ClutchTown.com
     
  19. kbm

    kbm Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2001
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    1
    A better stat is how many shots a player takes vs how many shots taken total. Last night mobley took 18 shots vs 75 total for the team. By my backwards math, that's about 3 shots him to 1 shot for the team.

    YEA YOU're RIGHT, CUTTINO's a GREAT PASSER!

    ------------------
    I am an invisible man.

    [This message has been edited by kbm (edited March 16, 2001).]
     
  20. tacoma park legend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    2,224
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jamcracker,

    I agree on that point. When Rudy is running 2 shakes to bait the double team, Cat will obviously never get the assist, which is no fault of his.

    You can see that he does take his role to heart a little too much sometimes. He has that "I trust my teammates, but I trust myself more" complex. I think we are seeing him grow as a player in this respect though. He is relying on his teammates more.

    What was beautiful about his game yesterday, was that his points came so easily. We didn't see him using up the entire shot clock, but using his god given quickness and making a definitive move to get to the basket. If Cat has his jumper, he is deadly. He's already got defenders on their heels, and can take that jumper whenever he wants.

    What frustrates alot of people, is when he goes away from his strengths. A prime example of this happened against the pacers. Cat drove, got doubled, but instead of hitting the man up top, he dribbled it back out to avoid the double team and proceeded to shoot a fadeaway off the glass. When these kind of plays occur, rockets fans get frustrated.

    These kind of plays by Cuttino get people frustrated just like other players faults get us frustrated. From the non existent hands of Cato, to no defense Walt Williams, there are things about every player on this team that frustrate us from one time to another, and people are simply pointing out the things about Cuttino that are frustrating, so don't take offense.

    I also find it funny that people who defend Cat to such extreme lengths, tend to think that anybody who criticizes Cat think that Francis is a God who is free of mistake, which is far from the truth.
    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited March 16, 2001).]
     

Share This Page