Eli was horrible his 1st two playoff games, and Big Ben (though they beat the Jets anyway in the 1st game) was really bad too. This despite both guys having outstanding targets and playmakers. Kerry Collins had a lower % percentage, lower yards per attempt, no rushing yards, no rushing TDs and no passing TDS. All despite his stats based on a Texans game and a quarter and half versus Indy's 2nd and 3rd team--which admittedly he played well in (despite throwing zero TDs he also didn't throw an INT in managing the games). VY absolutely gave the Titans the best chance to win against a good defense or Jeff Fisher wouldn't have played him even nursing a leg injury. Its is true a great QB and great systems can make average receivers look good, but crappy receivers and poor blocking (2nd half in SD game) are not going to make ANY QB look good. Look at Peyton Manning versus SD this year with new TE and WRs in the fold.
Incomplete pass that hits the ground is better than incomplete pass that the other team catches. This is why Collins is considered to be the better passer. Not sure any would argue that Young is a better passer than Collins. If there is one thing that all the past Super Bowl winners have shown(which QBs are expected to be), you have to have a passer that can keep the TOs low, and make all the throws at one time or another. The more great throws you can make, the more turnovers you are seemingly allowed. Guys like Elway and Favre have thrown their fair share of INTs, but they can also make some incredible passes in the clutch. In the season the Ravens won it all, Dilfer threw very few INTs and made just enough passing plays during the postseason to let the running game and defense do what they do best. Young is pretty good at dink and dunk, midrange sideline patterns(which is probably his most improved aspect since college), and shallow crossings. Oh, and deep outside go routes. However, he will eventually have to begin hitting the seams, deep ins, and posts if he wants to be successful.
In his first playoff game Ben went 17/30 (57%), 181 yds, 1 TD, 2 Int's. He had Bettis, Ward, Burress and Randle-El. In his first playoff game Manning went 10/18 (56 yds), 113 yds, 3 Int's. He had Tiki, Shockey, Burress & Toomer. Throwing up and down on the Texans is an accomplishment? This point would have more merit if Young wasn't undefeated against the Texans as well. Let's look at some other first playoff games for other QB's: Elway - 10/15 (66%), 123 yds, 1 Int in a loss (31-7) Peyton Manning - 19/43 (44%), 227 yds in a loss (19-16) Steve Young - 12/17 (70%), 158 yds, 1 TD, 1 Int in a loss (36-24) Rivers - 14/32 (44%), 230 yds, 1 Int in a loss (24-21) I think Young will be fine....
I dont look at Young's stats vs the Texans. Its personal, so he always will bring his best efforts against them. Basically, if he were on the Texans, who would get that ire and venom directed at them from him??? I used the Collins stats because he took the same crew Young had and put 38 pts on the board against the Texans. If Young is so much better than Collins, he should have scored more points on the lowly Texans. The Chicago Bears had more ppg than the Titans. The Tampa Bay Bucs had more ppg than the Titans. Dont get me started on the smoke and mirrors offense of Gruden's Bucs. Luke Frickin McCown was QBing them most of the 2nd half of the season. Young will be fine when he learns to read the whole defense. Ryan Leaf could be taught to read half a defense, but he didnt have the benefit of Young's speed to help play down that weakness.
If he has WRs and/or TEs that are formidable running those routes and VY misses them than I would be concerned. Look at Steve Youngs days at Tampa than at SF--I am sure it was 95% the same Steve Young (who was great everywhere else--BYU, USFL, than SF). Not saying VY will ever have SY pure passing ability, but that only serves to enhance my previous point that your targets, OL and schemes matter no matter who you are. Fisher/the Titans got the most out of an offense with basically zero downfield threats and very little explosiveness in any skill positions (outside of VY) that got even worse due to injury. Look at it this way, outside of perhaps Young over Rivers (and I think Young does have the better arm between them by a solid degree in addition to the athleticism), no Titans skill player would sniff playing time on the Chargers--even if Williams and Scaife were healthy (two of the top 3 targets of the Titans). The Titans had a on offense with solid and deep oline, a couple of good between the tackles running backs, and some OK quarterbacks. They did what they could with that. And I'll repeat again, Kerry Collins had zero passing TDs and a lower yard per attempt average than VY despite easier competition. Is he a better pure passer with all day to throw in a comfy big pocket where even the most marginal of NFL receivers can find a way to get open, most probably, but good teams will never give you that. VY at 85% in year 2 of his NFL career gave them a better chance to win against good competition--Jeff Fisher clearly got this.
Peyton Manning has a much superior "crew" that he took to Houston and only dropped 30 on the Texans. By your twisted logic, Kerry Collins is a better QB than Peyton Manning. You lose.
You'll defend VY till the day you die, no mater what he does on the field. You are protecting your ego. Admitting wrong shows strong character. What does that say about yours?
So still hanging onto the lack of skill position players he has. McNabb won play-off games without skilled wide outs. Vick even won his first play-off game throwing to the likes of Shawn Jefferson and Brian Finneran. His numbers were off(no picks), but he made the plays to win the game and his team scored points. In Green Bay. Great players make others around him better. That was what was said about him last year anyways. There is a quote about a famous college coach that goes something like: He could take his'n and beat your'n, or he could take your'n and beat his'n. From what I saw Sunday, Rivers could take the Titans and beat the Chargers, but Young couldnt take the Chargers and beat the Titans.
This is a good example, Farve has had some terrible years of late. But some better receivers + protection, see what happens. I not sure which Rivers you are talking about. It can't be the Philip one who is considered his offense's weak link and who can't make lots of throws. Nor the one who plays with the best all around RB and TE in the game plus some capable receivers and whose defense gets him the ball a lot in great position. Surely you don't mean that guy would have swung that game.
Better protection?? Better receivers?? Atlanta had a top notch rushing attack that year, just like Tennessee. But the receivers for Tennessee were at least as good as the ones for Atlanta. Shawn Jefferson?? Are you kidding?? And yes, the Phillip one who was dared by the Titans defense to beat them because LT and Antonio Gates sure werent.
Good Vince evaluation.... "Per footballsfuture.com, Iron B writes: "First of all....there are 2 types of people when it comes to grading Vince Young ...There are people who hated the idea of him as a QB from the start and continue to wait for his demise (basically when they saw Young..they Saw Vick...lets be truthful)....and there are people who were open minded and figured they give him as much time as an Eli, Carr, or Harrington. Truth: Titans have no WR....if you already pre judged Vince..then you only focused on him....and you missed something i have not seen in a while...Vince Lays out a 20 yard pass...to Gage...but Davis is running the same route and runs into Gage(last time i saw something like that was pop warner football...the first day..)....your WR's can't even run routes..and they don't even know the routes...not to mention Gage had no speed to get under the pass...and the pass was not over thrown...it was much like the pass over the shoulder to Ben Troupe....Your TE is faster than your receiver...VY calls Eric Moulds "Papa Bear"...thats funny untill you get out on the field and he plays like papa bear...he doesn't even know where the out of bounds line is...thats rookie stuff..and he is like 80 years old...i hate to tell you this Titan fans but...even Roydell Williams is a bum...he is a second Wr on any other team...a third on most... Myth: Titans have a running game:...No you don't....you are aggressive with the run..but you have no real threat in the running game...your running backs aren't threats to break for even ten yards...did anyone see that last Colts game?...the titans Oline was opening up those huge holes.....i mean BIG...and Lendale white would only get five to nine yards...he does not have the speed to get the first down..even when no one is there...and they fumble at key moments...Chris Henry is not breaking any big runs.... Truth: Titans Need better OLine: this can't be true ....right....wrong...90% of Scouts and draft publications gave Titans draft a D, because they think the titans should have traded down..because the titans needed everything.....Oline, D...WR, RB, Everything...and they did...but Young was such an amazing talent , he made people forget everything...and he made people around him play better..including the Line...because of VY's moving around..they got second chances at missed blocks... Myth: Young can't throw: He can..and norm needs to let him throw more..and down the field....but first you need a WR that can catch the deep ball....and has the speed to get open...you don't have that.. These are not opinions...it is the truth if you watch in an unbias manner...i am not a titans fan....i am a steeler fan...and i know for a fact that VY is not Kordell Steward...he is Vince Young....Titans QB...and like all Young QB's all he needs is the same time they gave Carr, Harrington (oh poor joey...all he had was kevin jones and Roy williams lol..if Vince had that The titans ..to my dismay...would have a ring)....Big Ben was 15-1 in his first year...he threw one to two INT's every game..but he won...and when he won the SB the next year...he had the worst stats of a winning QB in Super Bowl history....but he won...and when he had a bad year the next ..they said "he's a fluke...!...can't you see that"...and now look at him..one of the best in the Leauge...and yeah..he threw INT's and cost us a playoff win...but he is young..and will get better....we like him because he wins...You wanna know the Difference between Vince and Big Ben......Hines Ward..thats the difference...Parker (a back that can break long runs).....Plax (the first year...)...Holmes.......Heath Miller.....Marvel Smith, Faneca, Starx....Thats the difference...Eli gets a top receiver every year..and he still hasn't learn how to use shockey yet....he's got santana moss's lil borther waiting in the wings....Rivers got gates and chambers...as if LT and Jackson aint enough....i could go on and on...get real folks...before you judge..you have to atleast have a case....." ............this was not me talking fyi but thought was a good read... cant wait for next year already!
Actually Ben his first year threw 17 TDs and 11 INTs, completed 66% of his pases and had 8.9 yards/ attempt. His second year stats were similar.
I'll give Vince his time but I seriously doubt he will live up to the billing of other successful running quarterbacks such as McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, etc. 1. Titans have no wide receiver. OK but who has McNabb and Vick had? Nobody and by their second year they had won significant playoff games. 2. The Titans had 464 Pass attempts and 543 rushing attempts. That's about a 46% to 54%, which is not too bad. Plus they finished 5th in rushing offense on the season. The do have a running game, a power one. 3. Titans need a better offensive line but in the previous paragraph one states they were opening up huge holes against the Indy D. Hmmm??? They gave up 30 sacks which was 19th in the league and still only about 2 per game. Not too bad. 4. Again, other quarterbacks have done better with the same talent level, maybe even worse. I will give Vince time and realize that he is not any of those quarterbacks but he fits the mold. He will have his time and we will see. I doubt if he had a high profile receiver he would have a ring already, come on. I would also hardly call Ben one of the league's best QBs. Brady, Manning, Favre are the best in the league. Again, he's being compared to Rivers, E. Manning, and Roethlisberger but it was stated before that Vince is Vince. Hmmm? Yes, those quarterbacks have had some nice weapons and some have been able to manage what they have and some have not. If I remember correctly people come down hard, if not harder, on E. Manning, Rivers, etc. I will give Vince his time but I just get sick of everybody making excuses for him like NOTHING is his fault. It's the coaches, the teammates, the play schemes. Come on...
The Eagles had Westbrook, a great receiving threat out of the backfield. Basically what Bush aspires to be. http://www.nfl.com/players/brianwestbrook/careerstats?id=WES537220 Vick had Crumpler who is a good receiving TE. But you are right, the rest of his WR's sucked. 3. Titans need a better offensive line but in the previous paragraph one states they were opening up huge holes against the Indy D. Hmmm??? They gave up 30 sacks which was 19th in the league and still only about 2 per game. Not too bad.[/quote] See the above post about RB's that can't break long ones and fumble in key situations. Such as? Starting in their 2nd year...winning...with worse offensive talent. Please name them..... mrdave543 Great post. Give Vince time like you give everyone else. If you are going to piss over him then I want to hear the same complaints about other young QB's.....
