Originally posted by Pole You just said it your self....the best man for the job is SUBJECTIVE. It's in the opinion of the owner. If I'm paying that kind of cash for a franchise, you better have a DAMN good reason to think you can regulate who I hire to run the show. There's only 32 head coaches in the league. That's an AWFUL small sample size relative to the overall population to think you can derive any useful statistics out of. Wait a minute, you just popped up some example about blacks in the NBA and now you basically agree that the comparison blows and now you're agreeing with me that NFL coaching is subjective and the whole "best man for the job" line is a bunch of bull? So what's driving this subjective hiring that leaves minorities so poorly represented? Any ideas? This is nothing more than media driven race card to benefit blacks (despite the occasional slip up with the use of the word "minority"). If anyone was actually getting screwed here, it would be Hispanics, but this story has "African American" pasted all over it wherever you see it. Yeah, there are a lot of Hispanics in college football and the NFL. Woo baby they're everywhere. There was that quarterback Joe Montana from Cuba, he was pretty good. Hey, what about Asians and Native Americans? I guess they're getting really screwed too. And women? Where are all the women coaches? The population is half female and since according to Sonny being a player doesn't qualify you for coaching and player demographics mean nothing then naturally women should have half the head coaching positions. Yes, it's a big ole media driven race card. Pointing out discrepancies in hiring is always playing the race card, there could never actually be something behind it. This is a really stupid battle to be fighting too. A totally high profile position that has such a high rate of failure. If this actually pushed some owner into selecting a minority head coach (against his first choice), and the coach failed.....or even possibly....set up for failure, it would be a huge blow to your interests. Yeah, we minorities are often invovled in these stupid battles to gain equity in American society. We just have no clue that these extremely high profile positions are high risk employment, we should just let whites have those spots because darn it we wouldn't want to be fired for not performing well. If a black coach were fired well then that would be a HUGE blow to our interests because every time a white coach is fired we know how they never get jobs again. Thanks for the advice man. lol too funny dude.
Bird/Ditka had results didn't they? Of course, they would never have had results if they weren't given the opportunity. If you don't think there's a racial bias to head coaching in the NFL right now, you're nuts. Almost all head coaches are ex-NFL players. The mass majority of ex-NFL players are black. The mass majority of NFL coaches are white. Are you implying that the white ex-players all just happen to be smarter / more-qualified than the black ex-players? Or that the black ex-players simply aren't interested in the coaching positions? Everyone in the NFL -- owners included -- accepts that there's a bias problem in the hiring system right now. It's not a racism issue - people aren't saying black coaches can't coach. However, when you're as rich and successful as an NFL owner, there's a natural tendency to believe someone like you is best for the job, and you're probably going to be more impressed by someone who speaks, acts, and thinks like you. The question is what to do about it. No one is requiring that any team hire a minority. I fail to see what's so horrible about at least trying to help get them interviews.
Timing - grow up. I didn't say players didn't make good coaches. What I said was - "Just because someone can play a sport, doesn't mean that they can coach it..." That is a fact, ask Magic about that one.
Major - again I have no problem with everyone getting a fair shot. I have even said TWICE that the owners need to give everyone a chance. I know that their is a lack of minority coaches and this is due to the owners. A policy that encourages minority hiring and doesn't enforce it is ok with me. Their shouldn't be quotas or anything drastic like Timing is suggesting.
Timing - grow up. I didn't say players didn't make good coaches. What I said was - "Just because someone can play a sport, doesn't mean that they can coach it..." I think Timing was talking about your Hispanics comment. Coaches come from the player base. If there were a large number of Hispanics in the NFL, then maybe having few Hispanic coaches would be an issue. But there aren't, so it's not relevent. Both the NBA and MLB are leap years ahead of the NFL in hiring minority coaches. The NFL, however, still has significant good-ol-boy-network issues, in my opinion.
Their shouldn't be quotas or anything drastic like Timing is suggesting. I absolutely agree here. The NFL can try to "push" minority coaches into the system, but they should never, ever make any requirements or benefits to having one. Sorry to misinterpret your posts.
Smarter? I can't answer that. More qualified? In the eyes of the people doing the hiring, yes. TIMING does that quote look familiar? Its from the Augusta/women thread. A little hypocritical dontcha think? I guess if it were African Americans that Augusta wouldn't let in, your stance would be different. Your words again Timing. Now, can we use that same referrence ans say that "the OWNERS have a right to hire who they wish?"
Originally posted by Sonny Bird/Ditka had results didn't they? Wait a minute. Did you just say that the most qualified should get the job? You want to use a comparison where we know Bird/Ditka's record but not the record of the two worst black coaching candidates that you could pull out of the sky? Look at the personalities and tell me who you would pick as an owner for your coach? Bird or Barkley? How about Bird or Mo Cheeks or Byron Scott or Paul Silas? Unless you want to go Laimbeer and Barkley. Or better yet I'll copy your example and go Laimbeer and Mo Cheeks. You want Laimbeer or Avery Johnson? What personalities best qualifies one of them? We could play that game all day. It is clear that you won't be happy until everything is equal based upon race, regardless of skill/ability aka "The most qualified Man for the job." So we should do a census every year for all sporting leagues and anytime a racial makeup changes then coaches should be hired/fired accordingly. Right? If everything is equal based on skill then why are there 5 head coaches out of 149 positions? Are you saying that whites are better head coaches? If you believe this best man for the job routine is actually in place then that must be your position. Art Shell was 54-38 as a coach for the Raiders and made the playoffs 3 times in 6 years. I think that's a little more indicative of how he can run a team rather than his o-line coaching for a terrible Falcons team. Vic Fangio was basically run out of Indianapolis for his terrible coaching and here in Houston he seems to be a good coach again, a miracle. As for Art Shell and Dom Capers with the Texans, Capers had a career 31-35 coaching record prior to the Texans to Shell's 54-38 record with the Raiders. I'm not saying Shell was discriminated against because record isn't everything but he certainly had the qualifications to be hired over Dom Capers and definitely over the likes of Dick LeBeau, Marty Mornhinweg, Dave Campo, Mike Tice, Mike Riley, Chris Palmer, etc. Can you think of a white head coach who's won 70% of his games, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 times in 6 years, and can't get a head coaching job? Hell, Marty Schottenheimer has gotten two head coaching jobs in two years.
Weren't most , or all of those guys, coaches that were with their respective teams already? Gee, what a novel idea, promote guys who have worked for you and who have been loyal to the organization.
Originally posted by NJRocket Smarter? I can't answer that. More qualified? In the eyes of the people doing the hiring, yes. Being white makes them more qualified and that's not racist? Mkay... TIMING does that quote look familiar? Its from the Augusta/women thread. A little hypocritical dontcha think? I guess if it were African Americans that Augusta wouldn't let in, your stance would be different. The NFL isn't a private club. Do I gots to splain everythin to you Lucy? There are no public black organizations that discriminate against whites. What precedent is being set here? Private organizations can do what they want. Just because I agree with their right to do it doesn't mean I think they're fine people. The Augusta club is sexist and if they disallowed minorites they'd be racist. Do I really have to go Dubya on you and talk about the rule of law here? Your words again Timing. Now, can we use that same referrence ans say that "the OWNERS have a right to hire who they wish?" We're talking apples and oranges. The NFL isn't a private organization. Nice try digging stuff up though, I like that.
Are you actually reading anything I am saying??? Scroll up - read over man. "Major - again I have no problem with everyone getting a fair shot. I have even said TWICE that the owners need to give everyone a chance. I know that their is a lack of minority coaches and this is due to the owners. A policy that encourages minority hiring and doesn't enforce it is ok with me. Their shouldn't be quotas or anything drastic like Timing is suggesting." My examples of Barkley and Deion were just examples to clarify my point that not all players make good coaches, likewise I wouldn't want Lambeer, Romanowski or Turley coaching my team. Why are you so bent on making everything racist man?
But Capers had a proven track record of coaching an EXPANSION team...gee...I wonder if that had anything to do with it. Assuming that race played into a coaching search when it likely didn't is demeaning to every victim of racism. You probably won't see it that way because everything to you is a racial issue.
You said that...not me nor anyone else. You are pathetic. Maybe so, but the NFL isn't the one doing the hiring genius....the PRIVATELY OWNED TEAMS ARE
You didn't even read my post man. I said it wasn't necessarily discrimination but that Shell was qualified. I noticed you didn't explain to me why all of those other coaches were hired over Shell or if you could even think of any other coaches who'd won 70% of their games and not gotten another head coaching job.
They weren't hired because the person doing the hiring didn;t think that Art Shell was the best man for the job. Period. If you think that his being black had anything to do with his not being hired, then you are the racist.
Originally posted by NJRocket You said that...not me nor anyone else. You are pathetic. Your response in italics. Quote: Are you implying that the white ex-players all just happen to be smarter / more-qualified than the black ex-players? Smarter? I can't answer that. More qualified? In the eyes of the people doing the hiring, yes Someone hiring thinks that white ex-players are "more qualified" and that's not racist? I said that not you? What a dolt. Maybe so, but the NFL isn't the one doing the hiring genius....the PRIVATELY OWNED TEAMS ARE The NFL is an organization of teams, it's not some unaffiliated body that has no influence on teams. When NFL teams are taking tax money to build stadiums then I would question whether or not they're even still private organizations, the Packers most certainly aren't private. Even if they were still regarded as private, that certainly doesn't excuse the 117 college football teams which are most definitely not private. I know you have the best interest of society in mind however so if there is a discrimination lawsuit filed against the NFL I'm sure you'll support it 100% because you believe that the best candidates for the job should be hired.
The NFL and its member teams ARE private organizations. They certainly aren't public institutions. They aren't owned or funded by government. That makes them private entities.
They most certainly are funded by the government, can you think of any NFL facility that was funded privately? Also, the Packers have shareholders.
