JayZ -- let me explain my argument... if 4000 people (just a number for the sake of argument) smoke tobacoo regularly, let's say 10 people die from it.... now..let's say 100 people do some other illegal drug regularly...and 6 die from it.... what's more significant?? a higher percentage of people who use the illegal drugs are dying from them than those who smoke tobacco. I'm saying, those number reported in the aggregate aren't very helpful....there are tons more people smoking tobacco than doing illegal drugs, so it only stands to reason that more will die from them. Unless we know the numbers of users of both, we'll never know what those numbers really mean. I'm disputing the contention that caffeine is as bad for you as mar1juana...i have a hard time believing that one. just curious...why do you think there would be so few deaths related to the operation of a vehicle under the influence of mar1juana??? just because most people don't use mar1juana?? if that's what you mean, my argument would be that doesn't tell us much...so what if we legalized it?? would we see a ton more deaths related to the use of vehicles and people being under the influence?? is it a gateway drug...it seems to me it absolutely is....you readily admit that every crackhead in America started with pot...that in and of itself makes it a gateway drug! Are there some who didn't??? sure there are...but it seems that it tends to lead people down more destructive paths. That's a problem.
Funny how I've never been in that situation....admittedly I'm white...but everytime I've been pulled over I've found the cops to be courteous. I've never had one ask if they could search the vehicle..never had one lie or try to make something up...but then again, I notice in the rest of your post you are providing tips on how to hide stuff from cops...I've never had anything to hide. Maybe you find them threatening and jackassish (nice word!) because they can instantly tell you have something to hide. I am reminded that these are the same cops that every day work underpaid and risk their lives for the safety of us all, though. My personal opinion...it doesn't take balls to do hash or to serve out a sentence for it...it's merely doing your time if you refuse to pay the fine. No salute from me. Don't do the crime and you won't have to do the time. Just my two cents....
I agree with you there. Why? See your statement above. If you dispute that the numbers have any discernible meaning, what lead you to your conclusion - it seems just as likely to me that caffeine is just as harmful, especially given its highly addictive nature. In either case, the one thing we can definitely discern from the numerbs, if we believe them as reported, is that something like caffeine IS bad for you. On a relative scale, we can't say anything about caffeine versus mar1juana. But I'm not arguing that. I'm just arguing that we already know that more legal substances are very harmful, yet we don't do anything about them. once again i agree with you to an extent. but there's no way i can make you believe what my personal opinion is. i just feel, having driven under the influence of mar1juana way too many times when i was yougner, that it isn't nearly as dangerous as driving under the influence of alcohol. I would never ever ever support any movement towards legalizing driving under the influence of mar1juana. That should always be illegal, no matter what happens in regards to simply smoking somewhere. But I think the fraction of accidents related to mar1juana smoking, assuming both were done in equal quantity would be much smaller than alcohol. Once again, just my unsubstatiated opinion. just because every crackhead in America (or say 90%) tried pot before crack doesn't make it a gateway drug. I'm sure all of them had caffeine before they tried pot....should that lead us to the conclusion that it is actually caffeine that is the gateway drug. No. That would be dumb. Rather, given that most people who try pot never go on to harder drugs makes me think it isn't a gateway drug. What about those 5% who do though, you ask? Well, what about them. They already move ahead to more hardcore drugs as is, and pot is illegal. Legalizing it won't mean more will move on to pot. It is just as believable and likely the case, on the other hand, that its legalization will mean even less of the small number of potheads who already do it will move on to more seroius drugs. at teh very least, i do not foresee kids saying..."i'd sure like to just do some kind of illegal drug, and now that pot is legal i better start shooting up/doingsome lines, etc" further, it would be interesting to see actual numebrs on this, but i am sure there is just as large a portion of the non pot smoking population (if not larger) who lead destructive lifes than those who do smoke pot.
thanks for your reply JayZ...good post... 1. I don't know what those numbers are supposed to mean...so as for the caffeine deaths, I don't know what they mean. I have no idea how one dies from drinking a coke regularly. or having a few cups of coffee per day. i drink caffeine all the time...i don't feel as if it has ever made me more dangerous to myself or to others. I don't believe you can say the same about hash. you're talking about harm to yourself, primarily...I'm not. If you want to smoke tobacco and give yourself lung cancer, that's fine. But given that I feel mar1juana is a gateway drug and it's mind-altering qualities, I think it should stay illegal. 2. you're right...i've never been high..never done mar1juana...that limits my ability to speak on how it would affect my driving...I can only listen to what other people tell me about it. But I still feel that if you made it legal, you'd see more people dead from traffic accidents than you did the day before when it was still illegal. 3. you say only 5% of people who smoke pot go on to harder drugs....where do you get that?? best estimate??? do you mean people who only smoke pot once??? 4. I see pot as the beginning of a sliding scale...once people throw that barrier down, they're more willing to get involved with harder stuff....that imaginary barrier can be a good thing. I've heard of people addicted to sex...they start out where they can't get enough of p*rn...then it turns to topless clubs on a very regular basis...next thing you know they're caught with some hooker and their family is torn apart. Again...barriers are a good thing... I had a roommate in college who became addicted to pot...i know doctors and everyone else in the world say that's impossible, but he started down a very destructive path with it and he couldn't stop...at least that's what he told me....he started withdrawing student financial aid money and using it to buy pot. He eventually had to leave school because of it. You're right...it could just as well have been alcohol...but it was illegal for him to have that at the time too, quite frankly! I certainly don't see people blowing their college tuition on caffeine! I'm guessing the cost of a cup of coffee might have something to do with that though, too! (though, not at Starbucks -- geez, I think that's more expensive than MOST illegal narcotics!)
I am white and non-threatening looking. I have never had my car searched. He did the crime and I just think you have to be prepared if your going to do the crime. A pocket is not a good place for it under any circumstances. Granted, don't do the crime if you don't do the time. However, you better have some balls if your going to prison(maybe not county jail) cause your gonna be someone's biyatch and be a completely wrecked person by the time you get out if your not man enough to take care of yourself and fend of the horny lifers. By the way, I don't mean all cops suck...just the bad ones(and they know who they are). Perhaps these were good cops that have nothing better to do but pull people over for not signalling when changing lanes who just happen to be breaking the law. I highly doubt that is all there was too it. Maybe their clairvoyant . Funny how driver didn't get a ticket for the original pullover....a cop's discretion I guess. "We busted your friend so we scored and were going to let you go with no ticket for the original offense. Gee thanks....occifer."
I don't think doctors have said becoming addicted to pot is impossible. They just claim, generally, that no physical addiction occurs. The mental addiction, I'll admit, is strong, and I guarantee you that's why your friend went through what he did. But there will never be any withdrawal effects physically if you quit, meaning the only reason quitting is hard is because your mind is telling you its too fun to stop, not your body sending any kind of signals craving for more. certainly it's clear that some people can let pot lead them down a worng path. But these are generally people who would have their lives ruined if they became alcoholic as well. It is why alcohol isn't legal till your 21. A lot of people just don't know enough about themselves until that time to determine whether or not they have the ability to drink occasionally or smoke occasionally without it taking over their lives. I believe pot should be legalized in a similar manner as liquor (heck, i'd even like to see pot bars ala Europe, although I doubt that will happen soon), so that post 21 you can do it legally.
we'll agree to disagree then, JayZ thanks for the fair and even-tempered conversation...refreshing as of late!
I think you're wrong here. When pot was legalized in Amsterdam, there was a noticable decrease in hard drug use like heroin and cocaine. How do you explain that? If it was this gateway to hard drugs, like the anti-mar1juana side would have you believe, why wouldn't hard drug use soar? Because it's just not true. My question is, why? Who is benefiting from weed being illegal? PS Just to clear things up, Im a normal looking 28 year old white male and my friend drives a Saturn. I wasn't searched because I fit a certain profile, I think the odds just caught up with me as they tend to do.
No, if I remember correctly, we even had someone posting out of jail a year or two ago. I might be wrong, but somehow that is what my memory tells me.
Htownhero -- I have no idea how i could verify that hard drug use went down after pot was legalized in Amsterdam. If it's true, I have no explanation for it. I can only tell you what I've seen in my experience. i have no idea who's benefitting from it being illegal, except pushers who'd be put out of business if it weren't, because the price would drop so low. There is a legitimate argument that you could reduce crime by taking out the profit motive. But I'm not convinced pot isn't a gateway drug...and I think even most pro-pot folks acknowledge that it is, at least to some degree. By the way...aren't certain hard drugs legal in Amsterdam?? Is that where they have clean needle parks where people can shoot up their hard drugs safely?? I'd rather not model my society after Amsterdam or Europe.
On the "gateway" argument: 1. I bet most people who eventually smoke crack have eaten a banana sometime in their lives, too. Doesn't mean that there's a link, there. People who gravitate towards experimentation will genuinely start at the bottom of the totem poll. Then they'll work their way up. 2. I don't think pot being illegal actually prevents people from smoking it. 3. By itself, it's pretty harmless. Could you imagine what society would look like if we banned everything that *might* lead to something harmful? Might as well make contact sports illegal, since most violent people play contact sports at some point in their lives. 4. If pot really induced people to "do more," you'd see morepeople going on to something stronger. 5. On the "legalization of pot decreased other types of drug use..." here's my explanation of the situation: The real problem with drugs does not lie in the drugs themselves, but in the black market created by their illegality. When pot is illegal, smoking pot introduces people to the "black market culture." If it were legal, they would not be so introduced, and so would come into less contact with such things. Personally, I smoked pot. It was ok, and I never went on to crack, heroine, etc. In fact, this is what happens to the majority of people who smoke pot.
Here's the deal: Legalization would take away the power of the gangs, cartels, and dealers. We currently spend billions upon billions fighting this useless "war" on drugs and the only people who profit are thugs and murderers. If we stopped this idiotic war and made drugs legal, we'd save about 20-30 billion dollars per year. Add the profits from taxation and you're talking about several MORE billions of dollars per year to go into the U.S. Treasury. We'd have enough damn money to fund anything and everything from education to space exploration to studies showing the amount of methane produced in cow farts. The war on drugs is the most useless waste of time, effort, and money ever in the history of mankind. --- About the gateway drug issue concerning pot, all I can say is that's a load of crap. I've smoked pot. I smoked all the damn time in college. I have NEVER tried anything else, and I never really wanted too. But just to further make my point, I had tried tobacco and alcohol long before I ever thought of pot. In fact, I'd stumbled around piss-drunk on numerous occasions long before I ever thought of trying pot. I'd also had tons of caffeine long before those two. Should those three not also be considered gateway drugs? The simple truth of the matter is that the label of "gateway drug" is inconsistant, misleading, and just unfair all-around. --- The claim of drugs being more easily available to kids if they were legalized is also untrue and unfair. I'll offer personal experience here: In junior high school I could literally get a hold of any illegal substance I wanted. The two things that were the hardest to get ahold of were alcohol and tobacco products. Tobacco and alcohol were not impossible to find, mind you, but it was a LOT more difficult to get ahold of those two than it EVER was for illegal drugs. Why? The answer is simple to me: To purchase those things requires you, by law, to be of a certain age to buy them, and you are required, by law, to have certain licenses to sell them. For the most part, people are not going to risk jail time, fines, the losing of liquor licenses, etc. by providing that stuff to minors. The risks simply outweigh making an extra few bucks by selling to underage people. The black market, however, has no such regulations, and no such qualms about selling dope to kids. Legalization takes away their power, their influence, their money, and their jobs. --- So you don't want to be like Amsterdam, huh? You mean you don't want one of the lowest crime rates, one of the lowest of STD rates, and one of the lowest drug addiction rates of any civilized nation? Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know about those needle parks, but think about it this way: People are going to do drugs. And yes, it really is that simple. People have been abusing one substance or another throughout the course of history. The mindset here is this: People are going to do drugs, and some of those drugs done are going to imploy the use of needles. Keeping it illegal does nothing because people are going to do drugs whether mainstream society likes it or not. The essence of those clean needle parks (and they do exist, but where exactly I don't know because I can't stand to have blood taken, so I'm not about to touch heroin) is to prevent the transfer of disease caused by sharing needles. They simply recognized that drug use exists, and its futile to try and fight it, but what they CAN do is fight the spread of disease through needle sharing relatively easily. BTW, I've been to Amsterdam. Its one of the safest, cleanest cities in the world.
Nobody said that. A lot of people just use mind altering drugs to further enjoy life. To me, it's just as sad to have to read a book to enjoy life. But again, people generally read to further enjoy life, not to make it bearable in the first place (but if that was the case you could see how that would be sad)
