From Orlando's point of view, it's only considered a single deal. T Mac + Howard + Lue + Gaines for Cato, Cat and Francis. So it works.
Put it in another way. Assuming a five way trade. Orlando trade T Mac + Gaines + Howard + Lue for Cat + Cato + Francis Team A trade Cat + Cato for T Mac + Gaines Team B trade $4.917M TE + pick for Howard Team C trade $1.5M TE + pick for Lue Team D trade Francis for 2 picks (salary out> salary in) All trades work cap wise and will be accepted. No need for Orlando to have a TE of $10M. In addition, Team D will receive a TE of $5.48M. If team A, B, C and D are so happened to be the same team (Rockets), the end result will be Cat + Cato + Francis for T Mac + Gaines + Howard + Lue. $6.417M of existing $6.99M TE used and a new TE of $5.48M obtained.
Ok, now I see what you are proposing, but you can't do that. If we have a TE, we can break our end of the deal up into a non-simultaneous and a simultaneous part. You can't further break each of those parts down into multiple parts if you plan on having it be one single deal (which is what you are saying that it is from Orlando's POV). If Houston, Oralando and team X are doing a deal, then the all that matters is the net result for each team (except in the case of Houston which divides it's piece into simultaneous and non-simultaneous). Houston ---------- a) some player being covered by part of our TE (non-simultaneous part) b) the remaining players coming in to Houston -regardless of which team they come from vs all players going out - regardless of which team they go to (simultaneous part). Orlando ---------- All players going out vs all players coming in. Just the end result matters. It's all players Orlando trades away and all players that they receive, regardless of the team they came from. Team X --------- All players going out vs all players coming in Since you are making this a single deal and Houston traded away more than one player, then Houston is not eligible to receive a TE. So, if you're not eligible to receive a TE out of the deal, then of course, there's no reason to waste part of your TE when the deal works without it. If you want to try to create additional TE, then this would have to be separate trades, but then it's a separate trade for everyone involved. Every one of those trades has to stand on it's own. i.e. Orlando has to cover Francis' salary which they were unable to do.
aelliott - I can't see any way in which it could have been accomplished while Francis was BYC. That's why I remained on the sidelines. I'm convinced the trade happened using 2004-05 salaries. And a new TE could have resulted. I e-mailed you the specific salaries rather than muddy this thread up further. Let me know and we can post it here.
If you read the CBA, it specifically defines Maximum Salary in Article II, Section 7, paragraph (a), subparagraph (i): "(i) For any player who has completed fewer than (7) seven Years of Service, the greater of (x) 25% of the Salary Cap at the time the contract is executed......." Bender's max number for Francis is 25% of the 2003-04 salary cap but Francis signed his extension prior to the 2002-03. So was the contract "executed" when signed or when Francis received his raise? I don't know the answer but (with no disrespect to Bender) I do know that the vast majority of websites list Francis' first year as $10,067,750 which is 25% of the 2002-03 Salary Cap. Now, if Bender is correct, that would make Francis' YR 2 salary $12,330,000. That's a big difference from $10,067,750 which only would have a YR 2 of $11,326,219. And IMHO, it's the YR 2 (2004-05) salaries that were used for the trade.
GATER- If you had kept reading you would've found the answer...Article II, Section 7, paragraph (d). (d) A player and a Team may provide in a Rookie Scale Extension that the player’s Salary (in the first Season of the extended term) will equal "the Maximum Annual Salary applic-able to such player in the first Season of the extended term," and that the Salaries in any subsequent Seasons of the extended term will be increased or decreased based on percentages specified by the parties that comply with Article VII, Section 5(c). Any such Rookie Scale Extension shall be deemed amended on August 1 of the Salary Cap Year covering the first Season of the extended term to provide for specific Salaries for each Season of the extended term, based on the Maximum Annual Salary applicable to such player on such August 1. A Rookie Scale Extension entered into pursuant to this subsection may not include any Incentive Compensation. Basically, Bender "owned" the other websites as far as providing the right information in this case.
Gater, Why couldn't it have been accomplished exactly as I laid it out early in this thread? There was quite a bit reported about the deal having to be delayed until Francis lost his BYC if Lue had opted out of his contract, so I'd have to think that Francis was still BYC at the time of the deal. Go back an look at the scenario I posted and notice that it works out perfectly. Almost too perfect to be a coincidence. I got your email, but I haven't had a chance to delve into it yet.
aelliott - I follow you on the trade happening with 2003-04 contract values. If you think that's possible OK...but I'm still skeptical. BTW, if you use Francis at 10,067,750 you can darn near get the deal to work by using the TE for Howard and Gaines, sending Francis and Cato for McGrady and Lue, and then sending Mobley to ORL for the TE which was just created by Howard/Gaines. It's within $85k of working. Try it. Francis full + Cato = 17.4 * .85 = 14.8. McGrady + Lue = 14.8. Francis BYC + Cato = 12,377,875 McGrady + Lue = 14,779,750 * .85 = 12,562,788 RealGm has to be using the lower YR 1 contract value for Francis. Late for a gig...I'll check back after "Showtime"!!!
GATER- Did you see my post? I'd mark it down as near certainty that the $10.96m number is correct. Since this took place before July 1, I agree that the 03-04 contract values should be used. Houston: Francis+Mobley+Cato=$23.698125m (Adjusted for BYC)=$18.218125m Orlando: TMac+Howard+Gaines+Lue=$21.04987m From Orlando's perspective, out goes $21.04987m in comes $23.698125m. Easily absorbed with the APE (115%+100K). From Houston's perspective, we can absorb 115%+100K of the BYC adjusted amount. This "max" amount comes to $21.05084375m, which is literally a few hundred dollars greater than the salary Orlando is sending us. As aelliott said, it's too perfect to be a coincidence. No trade exception needed, nor created. Deals can be shuffled around to create TEs and the like (since it has to be one outgoing player), but I don't think this deal really had any wiggle room to do that. PS- I don't think you can reciprocate the 15% into 85%. 85% of 17.4 is 14.79 but 115% of 14.79 is 17.0085, not 17.4.
I just read this whole thread, my head is spinning, but I still do not know the value of our frickin" TE! Can someone just (without explanation) tell me how much it is now? Thanks
SJC- My analysis, and I believe aelliott's as well, leads me to believe our entire trade exception from the Glen Rice trade is still entact. Also, no new exception was created. In other words, still $6.9 mill and still expiring a little later this offseason (Sept. 30 off the top of my head, 1 year from whenever we made the Rice trade).
I've been in agreement with that position from my first post in here. I didn't catch your "with enough salaries you can get around 2003-04 BYC" until later. Distilled to it's essence, the Francis/McGrady trade could have been completed with either 03-04 or 04-05 contract values and no TE was needed nor created. (BTW, I think you mean 9/30/04. Rice was traded on Sept. 30th). NIKE - I read your post and have accepted the fact that Bender stands alone in her "scoop" and that her $10.96m appears to be the Yr 1 extension value for not only Francis but for Brand, B. Davis, and Shawn Marion. Further, I have enough basic math understanding to realize that 115% and 85% are not reciprocative. But they are generally close...this deal being the exception because the numbers are larger. What I was pointing out in my prior response to aeliott was that using the 2003-04 Yr 1 value of 10,067,750, the deal is pretty close.... ORL side TMac @ 13,279,750 + Lue @ 1,500,000 = 14,779,750 * 115% = 16,996,713 + 100k = 17,096,713 Francis @ 10,067,750 + Cato @ 7,344,000 = 17,411,750 With the lower Francis value, the trade is 315k from working on the ORL side. Given that most websites missed the Francis contract, it's worth noting that Lue with 275k more salary works. ( 275k * 115% of 316). Or Cato with 316k less. HOU side TMac @ 13,279,750 + Lue @ 1,500,000 = 14,779,750 Francis @ 10,067,750 *.5 = 5,033,875 + Cato @ 7,344,000 = 12,377,875 * 115% + 100k = 14,234,556 The difference is 545k. My very obscure point was that if Bender is alone in her number, another source (RealGm) could have had different 03-04 salaries and the trade may have worked for them. Thus, Mobley was sent for the temporary TE created by Howard and Gaines for part of our 6.99m TE. Stated another way, if RealGm (or any other source) thinks the Rockets have a $5.4m TE expiring in 2005, it has to be because they think Francis + Cato = TMac + Lue in 03-04 contract values.
TE created by Howard and Gaines could not be combined. Instead of one TE, there would be two smaller TE. Either one TE alone would not be enough to take Mobley. From the answer to Q68 of NBA Salary Cap FAQ, TE is not available when teams traded away mulitple players becasuse players traded away are aggregated. From Houston POV, they can have the following trades 1. TE for Howard 2. TE for Lue 3. Mobley + Cato for TMac + Gaines 4. Francis for nothing The first two trades using TE, the 3rd trade using APE (multiple players sent out, no TE gained). The 4th trade also using APE (Francis was the only player sent out and technically was not aggregated, therefore could gain a TE). http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#68 Also, from last para. of Q71, it is clear that when players were traded using different exceptions, it would not be a technical case of aggregation. So, even Houston traded away multiple players, Houston could gain a TE. Something like Orlando could trade away multiple players when one of the player was re-traded less than two months from pervious trade. It was possibile that Houston might choose to use the current $6.99M TE in exchange of a smaller amount TE that valid longer until June 29th 2005. It was also possible that some players salary were wrongly reported, thus Houston was required to use TE to make the trade work (Consider that the "max" amount Houston could recieve is only a few hundred dollars greater than the salary Orlando was sending out, an error of one thousand dollars in any one of the seven players' salary would make the trade not work). Of course RealGm (or any other source) may be wrong and the entire $6.99M was still there.
Well done hitting that scenario. Looks workable enough to me. However, while it's possible that the salaries were reported wrongly, I give it an equal chance that an error in salary reporting helps make the trade palatable as much as hurting it. Further, I don't think there are 7 chances for the player salaries to be off... -Juwan Howard was in year 1 of a full MLE contract. -Tyronn Lue signed for the $1.5 mill exception. -Francis was in year 1 of his max extension. -Gaines was in year 1 of a rookie scale deal. -TMac was on a max contract. Howard/Lue on MLE/LLE deals should be 100% accurate, as should Francis. TMac's max contract should make his figure right. Gaines' deal should be right as well- Bender's figure is the max 120% of the scale for his draft slot, so if anything a misreport would serve to help things. That only leaves Mobley and Cato. Mobley I'd suspect to be accurate as he was on a max early bird deal, and Cato's deal wasn't too out of the ordinary, figure wise. Even if they are, worst case scenario would have us take Gaines via our TE and we're still left with a bigger TE than 5.48. The biggest reason I don't think it happened that way... Assuming such a deal is legal (I haven't found reason to believe otherwise), why not wait till July? The numbers would alter as it'd become 04-05 numbers, but for the better. TE for Howard TE for Gaines Francis/Mobley for TMac/Lue (APE) Cato for nothing For Orlando's part, they would've gotten one bigger trade exception out of it (Howard's 04-05 vs. 03-04 salary) by about 500K, and a smaller TE within 100K of the one they may have gotten for Lue with Gaines' 04-05 salary. For Houston's part, rather than a TE half of Francis' 03-04 salary, $5.48 mill, we get one for Cato's 04-05 salary, or $7.99 mill. And for both parties' sakes, these TE could've been used for sign and trades negotiated during next summer's July Moratorium. If trade exceptions were created in the deal in June, they can't be used for sign and trades next year. Curiously enough, realGM does not report Orlando as getting any TE out of this deal. So, if the goal was to extend the trade exception, both Houston and Orlando would've gotten a lot more mileage by consummating in July. If this trade did make a new exception, it's only extra use would be in a trade deadline deal. The NBA trade deadline sees far less action than the MLB one, so it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me-I'd see it more likely for us to make moves in the rest of this offseason with our larger exception.
For Orlando's part, trade such as Cato for nothing or Francis for nothing would not work capwise, they have to combine all players in one trade to make it work. Therefore there would not be any trade exception for them whether 03-04 or 04-05 salary was used. Only Houston could have gotten a bigger TE if 04-05 salary was used. Actually, the trade could be rearranged as TE for Howard TE for Gaines Cato/Mobley for TMac Francis for Lue and Houston would have gotten a TE of $9.67M. At that time, Houston have waited Orlando for a long time. Their goal was to make the trade as soon as possible and not to have a bigger TE, hence they would not wait till July. Anyway, just want to know whether our TE is $6.99M, or as reported by RealGm/Chad Ford is $5.48M.
Now I'm confused on what you are proposing. Are you proposing a single trade or several separate trades? Easiet way to clairify is to show all sides of the deal that you are proposing, not just Houston's end. That way everyone can understand exactly what you are proposing. If you're saying that this is a single deal, then Houston's end can only be broken up into a single simultaneous part and a single non-simultaneous part. You can't break it down into two non-simultaneous deals and two simultaneous deals and still have it be one transaction from Orlando's POV. It would have to be : non-simultaneous: TE for Howard and Lue - That's legal Simultaneous: Cato+ Francis+Mobley for TMac, Gaines - That doesn't work from Orlando's POV, they're taking on too much salary. If you want to break this simultaneous part into two deals, then they have to be separate trades and both trades have to stand alone and work from both Houston and Orlando's POV. If I'm still missing your point, then lay out the entire deal that you are proposing for me.
