New Pops to the Rox rumor (UPDATE: Confirmed Rockets reach verbal agreement)

Kwame:

Your questions were basically "what brilliant statistical analysis led Morey to make three dumb signings?" It's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question. If I claimed that Morey was infallible, you would have a point. I did not. I did say and support with evidence that Morey has brought in an advanced system and the team has reaped the benefits on the roster and in the win column. You can't dispute this.

Let's talk about the McGrady proposal. First, the proposition was the McGrady would return healthy and motivated. That's a big if. Second, this coincided with re-signing Yao to a similar deal. Notice that both players would make half of what they make now giving the Rockets more flexibility. Third, re-signing a healthy, motivated McGrady at 4 years, $40 million is less than Jackson's contract. Additionally, a healthy and motivated McGrady is a better player than Jackson *and* younger. Also, and I will, again, go slow for you- re-signing McGrady at less than half of what he makes now would not require the Rockets trading Battier (an asset we could trade elsewhere) and an *unprotected first round pick.* Stop being so dense about this.

One more time- stop with the retroactive rose colored glasses about Chris Anderson, too. He was coming off a suspension for drugs and just now had a breakout season. If Morey dropped 2 million dollars on him you would have been the first in line back then to whine about him (and then re-hash the Battier trade..again). It's not like other teams didn't skip over him, too. He played for Denver. He had support relationships in place. He wasn't coming here.

 

That is how you...
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Ok first off, stop asking "what statiscal models did DM use to get XXX?". It makes you look an idiot, statistical models and data the Rox use are inaccesible to the normal poster.

Secondly I find it laugable you admonish someone about critical thinking but at the same time push for S-Jax over Battier. S-Jax was a cancer who only recently matured, however his game has more holes than swiss cheese. He's a lot like Brandon Roy in that he can do a little bit of everything, but unlike B-Roy his skillset is average at best. And for that guy you're paying his (newly minted) contract? THAT's your example of critical thinking? Personally I'd rather be a sheep and follow the Rox front management blindly.

Secondly you keep second-guessing the signings like it came as no big shock they would be flops. FYI Barry, Bonzi, Artest, Francis et al. are all low-risk moves. We gave up very little, if any, assets to get them so why are you all worked up over it? Oh yeah that's right, because DM and crew haven't messed up a major move yet

Barry as I recall was signed for the vet min, and yet you're complaining cuz we signed him to a two year deal instead of one? Dude, that's like crying your eyes out cuz your lottery ticket didn't win. He was a solid signing at the time, we were contending and he was supposed to provide a vet presence, 3 point shooting and even some playmaking. Couple it with his high bball IQ and theoretically we would have had the ideal player in RA's system. Top it off with the "Barry" tradition and only an idiot would have taken that signing against him at the time.

 

Okay BMoney, now I'm going to go real slow for you and even make it easier this time.

Here is what you said:

That is a pretty bold statement. When you make a statement like that, the burden of proof is on you. If you can't back it up then your statement is baseless.

Lets not focus on those three particular moves now so that you might attempt to at least answer my questions. In general, tell me what it is that makes the statistical models and the quantitative approach used by the Rockets "more advanced than any [other] team"? Can you tell me anything about the statistical methodology that they use? What dependent and independent variables do they use in their analyses? Do you even know what statistical software they use? Is it SPSS, STATA, SAS, or something else? It just seems to me that people on here praise an approach they know nothing about. The statement you made above indicated that you might have known something about this approach. I don't want to be too harsh and hurt your feelings, but, thus far, you've avoided any specifics, which indicates to me that you have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe it was just hyperbole and a severe exaggeration on your part. Please let us know.

The fact that you're even entertaining the continuation of the Yao-McGrady experiment, even with decreased salaries, also indicates that your knowledge of basketball is not what you think it is. How many more disappoints do you want us Rockets' fans to endure? I think your problem is creativity and the ability to think outside the box. You're quick to criticize others when they make trade or free agent proposals, but I had to push and prod you to provide one of your own. Maybe if you had more of an imagination, we could creatively cooperate and look at possible proposals that would benefit this team. As it currently stands, however, all you can do in my view is criticize others and blindly support the organization. You would have fit in nicely with the Bush Administration.

In regards to Birdman, he made less than $800k in Denver last year, if you don't think the Rockets could've lured him here with Brent Barry type money ($1.9 mill or even less) then I don't know what to say to you. I wouldnt've criticized that move, because it would have addressed a glaring need unlike the signing of Pops.

 

I'm not the one who claimed that the statistical models the Rockets use are more advanced than any other team out there. That statement presupposes a knowledge, at one level or another, of what you're saying is inaccessible to the normal poster. I guess you didn't think of that before you started ranting, which makes you look like an idiot.

This passage makes me question how long you've watched basketball. If S-Jax is such a "cancer who only recently matured", why do Tim Duncan and Popovich speak so highly of him? The Spurs would not have won the title in 2003 if it wasn't for him. The Warriors would not have defeated a 67 win Mavs team in the playoffs without him. He's a good offense and defensive player, and he's clutch. Who's had more success and is more of a winner as an NBA player - Jackson or Battier? At least you admit that you'd rather be a sheep and follow management blindly.

Nice to know that management is infallible in your eyes. You would make a great yes-man. I would say giving up 2 1st round picks to acquire Artest is somewhat of a major move and I supported it. I don't think the Rockets have made any real major moves yet under DM, thus, they haven't had a chance to be successful at it or mess it up. The problem is that the Rockets were supposedly in "win now" mode and the moves above didn't make any sense or support that philosophy - especially given the fact that the 2 main guys are injury prone and brittle. But I guess you're like one of those people that equates criticism of the US government with being anti-American.

All that stuff would've been nice, but he couldn't even get off the bench. I criticized the signing when it happened, because it didn't fill a need. That money could've been giving to other players who probably would have contributed more (Barnes) and/or filled a need (Birdman). It just didn't make any sense to sign him - especially since nobody else wanted him. I guess the "Barry tradition" is enough of a reason to commit $4 million to somebody who hardly contributed and will probably do even less this season.

 

I know ya mad
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Chamillionaire? Really?
Really?
Ugh....

I guess your basketball IQ and your taste in music have something in common...


Dang dude, I can't believe you just posted a Chamillionaire track in response to Mobb Deep. Jesus...I still can't believe it.
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To say giving up 2 1st rd picks for artest was nothing is crazy. What did the spurs give up to get Jefferson? How many did Orlando give up to get Carter? Think about the fact the rockets have given up 1 lotto pick and 2 1st rd pick in 4 yrs. What do we have to show?

People will dismiss those mid to late 1st rd picks as hit or miss, but there have been some really good players, all star quality guys pick post lotto. If your scouts are good and know how to pick guys, then you don't shy away from those later picks.

 

Man, I completely agree.

That is why I still feel the Rockets BLEW it by not trading Ron at the trading deadline as an expiring deal.

Teams were unloading talent just to get out of longer term deals.

Ron as a rental even back to sacremento for Salmons would have been good.

Seriously, keeping Ron was a major mistake....IMO.

DD

 

Are you saying this in retrospect because Yao got hurt and they couldn't finish the Lakers off? At the time of the trading deadline, Yao was healthy and the Rockets were looking towards a 2 or 3 seed. Why trade a key component when they had a reasonable shot to advance far in the playoffs?

 

I think the reason Rox didn't pull off a trade is that they couldn't get a good deal out of Ron at that time. There aren't many teams giving up quality players (I'm not talking about Magette here ) in the middle of a season. You usually see those moves in the offseason.

 

You said last summer that trading for Artest was a good deal (even put that in your signature for a while), and you said this summer that it was the right move not to bring back Artest and get Ariza instead. Now Artest was a big mistake. Which is it?

You also said all of last year that Dorsey was a bad player, and you said you like Pops. Now, you're saying Pops is just a Dorsey-clone, minus the strength and defense. Which is it?

It all comes back to the Rockets decision to gamble with Tracy and Yao. There isn't another team that would be successful with those two as a foundation (I challenge you to find one team in the history of the league that's been successful with two of its best, highest-salaried players missing all the combined games ours have). If the gamble that they could be healthy for a full season paid off, then the pieces we've put around them (including Battier, including Artest, including Scola/Landry/Brooks/Hayes/etc.) would be strong enough to make the team championship-caliber.

All the other criticisms people can go back and forth on ad nauseum. It all comes back to the so-called core foundation of Yao and Tracy.

 

I'm not going to talk for DD,but this is what I'm guessing he means. Once Tracy went down, so did any far fetched title hopes. If that's the case, either you make a huge talent upgrade to help offset the talent or you pull back and try to get some value from guys like Ron. I don't know that people will agree, that's just my interpretation. Either your in the poker game or you're not.

DD and I don't agree on ron. I prefer ron to battier. I wouldve tried to ship shane out for a couple of young cheap players and if ron signs elsewhere, then at least we have younger talent and or more availible capspace and flexibility.

 

Artest was effectively traded -- for Ariza. I assume you would not have been satisifed merely with one or two late first round pick. You were asking for Maggette, if I recall.

Tell me who you'd rather have right now -- Maggette (who makes 9-10 million over the next 4 years) or Ariza?

 

Even though McGrady was hurt, had Yao remained healthy in the playoffs, they had a good chance of beating the Lakers. Even with McGrady out, they were a last game loss away from being the 2/3 seed. Title hopes weren't too far-fetched.

 

I am still of the opinion that OP was Carroll Dawson so he's still alive but passed on from being the teams insider leak. I mostly think it because of the name and the eye thing.

He's around town enough that someone could ask him. I think the statute of limitations would allow him to say now.

 

Durvasa, nowhere in those post did I say Artest was a bad trade. I responded to a poster that act like we didn't give up anything. I pointed out 2 first picks is high compensation that's all. Also I kept saying Morey needed to finish the job by getting Yao a backup.

As far as Pop vs Dorsey, I feel like that's pretty accurate. Anyone that watches him play will see a 6'8-6'9 athletic finisher type of guy. He won't be able to hold the post up position like dorsey, but he won't be like novak either.

 

What would you say Pops does better than Dorsey? Between the two, who do you like more, and why?

 

You ignored the fact that I was pointing out, which was Kareem saying at the time he wanted to be traded to either LA or NY.

The Lakers did take advantage of the rules back then to get Magic and Worthy. When Gail Goodrich left as a free agent, the Lakers received 3 draft picks form the New Orleans as compensation. One of them turned into Magic when the Jazz became the worst team in NBA. After Worthy, the NBA put the rule afterwards that no team can trade away their consecutive 1st round picks. For arguments sake, I'll take those at face value and say those were shrewd moves. Again, the Rockets haven't made a franchise changing move like those (other then tanking for Hakeem), but you can't fault current Rockets regime for not making the home run moves like those at this time, they simply might not be available at this time. Teams are too wary of being taken advantage in today's NBA. Unless of course you seem to be the Lakers. I mean, Fisher asked out of his Jazz contract and lo and behold signed back with the Lakers.

If all the offers were the same for Shaq back then, I think the Lakers would have had the edge in getting him. You said it yourself, he felt like a big fish in a small pond, what bigger pond can you move to then LA? I think Shaq is intelligent enough to tell the difference between the Clippers and Lakers. NJ doesn't have Hollywood. NY still had Ewing in 96 and he would have been offended if the Knicks would have gone after Shaq. Argue all you want that NY should have gone after a younger Shaq, but you know that wouldn't happened with Ewing still there. And what difference does it make which team drafted Kobe? He still would have balked at playing there. He had workouts in LA prior to the draft against Larry Drew and Michael Cooper, and to me seemed bent on getting traded to LA.

They didn't have ping pong balls back then in the Showtime era and in the Shaq/Kobe era those 2 stars arguably wanted to play in LA.

It's easier said then done on moving Tmac and Yao for equal or better value, what team wants known damage goods? Everybody has been harping on Tmac's expiring contract, but why accept deals that could potentially send us backwards? You know of any lottery bound team that is willing to trade it's 1st rd pick for Tmac? You really think the Hornets would trade CP3 for Tmac? I don't. And if you suggest some package deal with the Clippers that includes Jordan and Baron Davis, I'll laugh.

Again, get on the phone and let Daryl know how to get a Magic, Worthy, Kareem, Shaq, and Kobe instead of a Tmac and Yao. I'm sure those type of players fall from the turnip truck all the time. Maybe he can tell them Houston is the new Hollywood and we have our own walk of fame.

Again if all it took to get Gasol was a trash player with an expiring contract, what's the difference between the rest of the teams trash players with expiring contracts and LA's?

 

Durvasa, that last comment about building with a cracked foundation is what's so frustrating. Its like wezre building a house using popsicle sticks and its all good. What's going to be even worse is this summer when tracy re ups. Yeah it will only be for 10m, but that's basically 20% of the cap. Then Yao will sign his lifetime and personal services contract. Its really sad, but maybe some super plan will evolve out of this.