New Pops to the Rox rumor (UPDATE: Confirmed Rockets reach verbal agreement)

Yeah. Guess what? When I said that signing a healthy McGrady at 4 years, $40 million might be a good option, I was agreeing with your proposal. What was all this talk about being intellectually dishonest? I'll let you resume your circle jerk, um, I mean discussion.

 

I wouldn't have any problems with a cheap signing like Pops if it wasn't for the possibility of having Landry or Scola being moved.Will Dorsey be moved to accommodate him? It would be much better if Cook or Barry were moved instead.
Barry's experience,IQ didn't help because of his weak on court performance,I don't see him doing any better this year. His expiring contract isn't of much use either.

 

BMoney, what kind of analysis do they spurs use? They've pick 2 all stars after the 28th pick. I know there have been huge write ups about these databases that are compiled and that's cool and again, i'm not saying they don't work, but scouting most times comes down to eyes. Not stats, not databases, what do you see on tape. The guy that left for the spurs recommended drafting Landry and we know sisnce he watched all his senior year games, adelman strongly put in a word for Brooks. I do like the find in wafer, now he's in europe.Lowry is solid, earl watson like and probably is a career bench player. Barry,bonzi,james,and francis dealss have sucked and didn't help the franhise. We will see how they come over the other side.

 

I wasn't laughing at that, I was laughing at the comment about being intellectual bankrupt. As far as mcgrady signing, I never said I think its a great idea, i'm just saying from what I'm getting, that's what's going to happen. I wasn't being dishonest, it was just a funny comment.

 

All this would've been nice if he could get off the bench, which he couldn't. As leebigez mentions nobody is going to listen to a player that's not producing on the court. Still doesn't answer the question of why two years instead of one? What was the statistical model that told the Rockets to sign him to a 2 year deal?

Then why did you respond to it? Lol. Especially since it wasn't even directed towards you. Those are some awesome links you posted there. Can you now tell me what "advanced" quantitative approach was used by the Rockets when signing Barry to a TWO year deal or what were the dependent and independent variables in the decision to draft Dorsey or what math equation led the Rockets to sign Pops? Probably not, but you're also the same guy that thinks an old role player that is going to be depreciating asset is the key to this team's identity. It was posted on this board that Brooks was Adelman's pick by someone with access to inside info. Last, you should learn to think critically instead of blindly following the Rockets front office.

Cool, you posted some awesome links too. Can you now answer the questions I originally posed to you? I'm assuming you read the articles or will you admit that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to statistical methodology and quantitative approaches? Either you do or you don't. Either you can answer the questions I originally posed to you or you can't.

It is absolutely hilarious that you criticize a move to trade a soon to be depreciating asset in Battier for Stephen Jackson when you agree with a move to sign T-Mac to a 4 year $40 million contract. They're both basically the same age, but at least the guy I want still plays good offense, good defense, is clutch, has been beyond the 2nd round, and just led the league in mpg while the guy you want to commit $40 million to, well, we all know about him. Nice logic! Lol.

Also, nothing wrong with being passionate about the Rockets, I feel the same way, but you shouldn't be a blind follower of the team. Try to be more of a critical thinker as well.

I know this was directed towards leebigez, but I'll point out that you're wrong here. This is what I mean about you getting emotional and excited...usually rational thought is the first victim. Leebigez was commenting on what he thought would happen based on inside information about how Les feels about McGrady. He explicitly said in that thread that he was not advocating it. Just calm down man and stop being so aggressive with your posts.

 

1. Every so called "failure" cost us nothing, except some Les cash, so who cares?
2. Luis Scola
3. Aaron Brooks
4. Carl Landry
5. Kyle Lowry (MUCH better than Earl Watson when he was 22...)
6. Chuck Hayes, as usual, underrated and undervalued.


DM is a HUGE win...

 

how much are they paying him?

 

They were end of the bench fliers that the Spurs, Lakers, Celtics and all teams often fail on. They cost the team nothing. The Rockets wouldn't have got Artest last year if they didn't turn Mike James and Bonzi Wells into the Bobby Jackson expiring deal. Also, I don't think the Rockets are perfect. I was simply saying that the team is commited to winning as evidenced by their investment in these systems.

Look, the Rockets have not netted all-star talent in the four years that Morey has been in charge from the draft because, well, it's rare. The Spurs hit with Parker and Ginobli, but missed with other draft picks and free agent signings. Everybody does. Do you recall how much they spent on Rasho Nesterovich. The Spurs are unquestionably a great organistation, but the Parkers and Ginoblis of the world are elite players because they play with Tim Duncan. Their max level contract guys play to their contract (and play for a long time) and ours have not.

I don't think there is any one model for building a championship. Joe Dumars built a championship team and also passed on Carmelo Anthony and Dwayne Wade for Darko. He probably used a more old school approach. I bet most teams use both scouting and statistical analysis anyway, so this argument is moot in 2009.

 

Kwame: you brought me up in this thread. Stop acting like you are some reasoned poster around here. You have been a leaky vagina about Shane Battier for years. Also, once again, you proposed the 31 year old Stephen Jackson and his horrible contract for Battier (whose deal is expiring) plus an unprotected 2010 first round pick on a rebuilding team. Pretending your toxic waste dump is the Garden of Eden won't make the stench go away.

 

1. No one will listen to a player that is not producing on the court?

How about KG and Sam Mitchell?

2. Statistical model?

Huh? Expiring contract G. It is not that hard to figure out, Brian Cooks also has a very valuable contract. These things are needed to make big trades work. It really is not that complex...

3. An old role player?

Is 30 old these days? When did Bruce Bowen start his decline again? Hmmm.

4. Dorsey?

Also very simple, back-up C was a position of need. Very simple, and the jury is still out on Joey...

 

Re: Morey's "mistakes":

No front office hits 1.000, so it's really silly to say that a front office's methods are useless on the basis that they made some moves that didn't work out.

The Spurs, you might remember, signed one Jackie Butler and then gave away Scola to dump his contract. The great Jerry West gave MLE money (for 6 years, I think) to Brian Cardinal. The champion Lakers are overpaying Walton and Vujacic (and until last season, Radmonovic).

The real question is the front office's methods generates a higher success rate than most teams, given the same resources. In that department, I believe the current Rockets front office have done well comparatively.

 

Those busted moves do cost something whether its a draft pick, cash, or both. If the rockets had to pay cash and a 2nd rd pick to get rid of francis, what do you think its going to cost to get rid of cook and barry? Now in all fairness, those guys might be packaged with a better player to get a better player.

More times than not, teams gamble with low risk, high reward on young guys. 2nd rd picks or mle type guys that turn out to be better than expected. Hedo,Salmons, were examples of this. Hopefully ariza falls into that boat also. Barry was a low risk,low reward because he was trash his last 2 yr with the spurs. They tried to get rid of barry every year he was there because he was soft and couldn't guard. I remember people kept saying the rockets were saving him for the playoffs. Playoffs came and went and he was a no show. In the meantime, minimum salary guys like Birdman and matt barnes were passed over. That was my beef. Don't know if we wouldve won the title, but birdman as yao's replacement and barnes as another big swing wouldve helped more than barry and dorsey. Hell, Jordan wouldve helped more than dorsey, but that's another fight.

 

Mike James "cost" the Rockets Juwan Howard. Then they included Bonzi to get rid of him in a Bobby Jackson trade (who was then used in the Artest trade). I don't think Bonzi Wells in his last year with the Rockets was doing much anyways (and he was out of the league quickly).

I am not sure how the Rockets would have been better off keeping Juwan Howard.

Steve Francis cost cash and a 2nd Rounder, which is essentially equal to $2 million, judging by what the team paid for Taylor and Llull. So it's just money... not sure what, given the salary cap rules, the Rockets would have added talent-wise if they didn't make the Francis move.

The idea is that you can't guarantee all your moves will work, so, when you have limite resources, the game is to (1) add more opportunities (like by buying 2nd round picks, or pulling the maneuvers they did in getting additional picks last season), and (2) limit your downside, so your "mistakes" don't stay on the books for the long run (see Curry, Eddy) and haunt you.

 

Nothing, they will expire with us and we will have money, or they will be much needed salary filler in a bigger trade. Trading second round draft picks is no big deal anyway, If Les is willing to buy them, who cares? DM thought Steve was worth the LOW risk, and that is good enough for me.

Barnes and Birdman were passed over? How do you know that?

There are other teams trying to get these guys...

I won't debate Barry with you, DM thought he would be valuable, and who is to say he wasn't that in practice. It was almost needed when you are trying to teach a read and react system to the likes of Joey Dorsey. Brent Barry has a great basketball mind, and is like an assistant coach in that respect...

 

I agree with some of what you say. I don't really agree that turning bonzi or whomever into jackson netter the rockets artest because in reality, the rockets couldve kept howard and used his contract to get jackson since his contract was expiring. Also, had the rockets made a good use of the lotto pick, they probably wouldn't needed to trade for artest anyway.

I do agree with CH when he says about every team hits and misses especially on draft picks. West has said a million times the memphis scouts suggested gooden over amare. Since he got there late, he took the scouts word, half of a rookie season and gooden was gone. Just like mentioned also, dumars passed on really bosh. It wouldn't made any reason to get wade or anthony when they had rip and prince. It was a bad pick and they're paying for it now. Had the right pick been made, that team would still be contenders. That's why no matter what, you can't blow high lotto picks. I guess we will see where this ship lands. I'm ready for the rebuild, but it seems like management is still holding on. You don't sign 30 yr old guys like Andersen if you're trying to transition the team.

 

That is a very interesting point that I hadn't really considered...

Makes me wonder if Morey is gearing another Tracy/Yao run and praying for future health, just after that third star I think...

 

I asked you a few simple questions based on a comment you made in this thread, which you STILL haven't answered. You're the one that threw a hissy fit when I asked you those questions. I also said in that other thread you could probably get Jackson for Battier straight up. Anyways, if Jackson's contract is horrible, your idea, by your own logic, of giving McGrady $40 million over 4 years is worse.

Nothing you've said explains why the Rockets gave Barry 2 years instead of 1 or why they even signed him in the first place. Unless, you believe all that stuff you said earlier about him bringing all those attributes to the team even though he couldn't get off the bench. It was just a stupid and unnecessary move, but your blind support will not allow you to see that. A guy like Barnes (a better player than Barry) could've been easily had. Just go and look and see how much he made vs how much Barry made last year. Same goes for Birdman, he made less than 800k while Barry made almost $2 million. If you don't think either Barnes or Birdman could've been had for that amount then you're blind to the facts. That would've been real value. Also regarding Dorsey, if back-up C was a position of need, why draft a project who was in his mid-20s and who was definitely NOT ready to contribute? In relation to Battier, he was never the defender Bowen was, but did you not see how long it took Battier to recover from a routine surgery? He's never been a good athlete and his poor recovery demonstrates a guy who's body is on the decline. You, however, want to hold on to him. Finally, are you going to answer any of the questions I posed to you or are you going to take the BMoney route?

 

1. Brent Barry

Dude, How many times do I have to answer the same question. I have given you my opinion on why we signed Barry and why we signed him for 2 years. Sheesh...

2. Joey Dorsey

They THOUGHT he was game ready. It turned out he was not. BIG DEAL, 2nd round picks are 2ND ROUND PICKS. Do you expect us to get a contibutor with every second rounder? The Jury is still out...

3. Barnes, Birdman...

It is very easy, in retrospect, to say we should have signed this guy or that guy. Birdman had character issues, so I understand why DM would avoid him. Matt Barnes made 3 million in 2007-08, so..hmm...(you been had) I understand that we could have signed other guys, (there is probably a giant list), but that is a very, very small and insignificant detail you are arguing. If signing Brent Barry to a 2-year deal is the worst thing DM has done, I am a happy man...

4. Battier-Bowen...

Battier is the better all-around defender...It is not close.

5. Battier

Please, the guy had missed 14 games TOTAL, before last season...Different people respond differently to surgery. Do not pretend to be a doctor now...

 

You've got on quite a little tanget here. Let me break it down for you. I answered your questions. I provided factual support for my arguments. See, for people who speak English, when other GM's, basketball analysts and news reports show that a team expends resources and money in ways that other teams do not in the scouting, stastical analysis and player development mode of their operation, that's not my opinion. Those are facts. I can't think for you, dude.

Second, you are being a weasel about the Jackson thread. I mocked you for being a basketball simpleton when you proposed obtaining him for Battier and an unprotected 2010 on a prospective lottery team. That was *your* propsal. If you changed your mind on that proposal after it was pointed out how incredibly dumb it was, good for you.

Third, nitpicking individual moves in the face of the overwhelming evidence and national consensus that Morey has been a solid GM, again, makes you look like a turd. Stop polluting the BBS about your overinflated sense of basketball acumen when you repeatedly don't understand so much as the first thing about the salary cap, expiring contracts, or the fundamentals of building a team. Last, on a minor note, you act like Anderson was even going to come to Houston. He had a relationship and all sorts of personal reasons for going to Denver. It wasn't an option. I am not going to go into the numerous ways that you destroy logic, but this mental tick you have is particularly annoying.

 

You haven't explained anything. You've just run around in circles, but I guess that's how you roll. Your Battier hero worship is amusing though. It would be even funnier if it wasn't so prevalent on this site. What's even more amusing is your treatment of Dorsey. First you say he filled a glaring need as a back-up center and then you say they thought he was ready, but he wasn't and it's no big deal. That logic is so circular that the room you're sitting in is probably spinning.

No you have not answered my questions. I asked you 3 specific questions and then you went on a rant/tirade. You need to go back and re-read that other thread before making assumptions about my proposal. Anyways, you don't realize how silly you look for wanting to offer the same type of money and contract length to a guy like McGrady who's basically the same age as Jackson.

I'm pretty sure Birdman would've seriously considered coming to Houston for the almost $2 mill a year Barry got and he would've actually filled a glaring need unlike Brent. If only you knew as much about basketball as you think you know.