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New poll finds increasing support for regulated MJ

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by GladiatoRowdy, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    There could be, but isn't it significant that the two highest periods of murder in the US were during Prohibition and the "War on Drugs?"

    I'm not saying there aren't other factors, but this is one of them. The drug war has inflicted massive amounts of violence on our society in the name of the children. The same children who would see their access to drugs disappear in a regulated market.

    Do you want to see your kids have easier access to drugs than alcohol? They have that now.
     
    #121 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 2, 2003
  2. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Statistically speaking then, the rate is significantly LESS than 1%greater in 2001 than in 1950. Regardless of the numbers, the current level is no where near the "highest" level that you stated as fact.

    Incidentally, the population has almost DOUBLED since 1950 (281 million vs. 150 million). Of course there are going to be more murders. There are also more car crashes than in 1950.
     
    #122 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  3. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    What are you talking about? The homicide argument?
     
    #123 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 2, 2003
  4. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i don't buy that andy...i went to tons of high school parties where alcohol was quite plentiful...but very rarely did i see drugs. just my personal experience, to be sure...but underage drinking is VERY common.

    but for the record, i really don't think i'd have a problem with the legalization of pot. truly, i don't know enough about it....but i don't think i'd have a huge problem with that.
     
    #124 MadMax, Jul 2, 2003
  5. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    The data I am looking at is from a chart of murder rates from 1900 to 2000.

    [​IMG]

    This clearly shows elevated homicide rates.

    BTW, this is not my ONLY argument against prohibition, it is one of dozens. I am trying to answer everyone's assertions and we are getting bogged down on this one point.

    The part that is frustrating to me is that despite the fact that I try to answer everyone's questions and comments, the people on the other side just ignore the questions they can't answer and then think that they "got" me on the murder rate issue.

    Once again, can anyone provide an example of a positive effect that prohibition has had in our country?

    Can anyone show that the "War on Drugs" has any chance of achieving the stated goal of a drug free America?
     
    #125 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 2, 2003
  6. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    There are more people, but that number is murders per 100,000 which takes into account population increases.
     
    #126 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 2, 2003
  7. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    That's the best example.

    Your claim was that homicide levels were at their HIGHEST LEVEL since prohibition began.

    I provided factual evidence (according to the FBI, not some anti-drug site), showing that homicide rates are no where near the highest level and as a matter of fact declined every year between 1993 and 2000. The rate per 100,000 people has increased only slightly comparing 1950 to 2001.

    Your claim was proven to be wrong, yet you try to spin it.

    In another thread, you requested factual information. A timeline was presented which you dismissed as "made-up" evidence and you had a VERY different timeline which you would provide (this was on 06/26). You failed to provide this timeline and now say that you haven't bothered looking for it since you decided to bow out of that thread, even though that decision was made (at least you posted it) on 07/01, 5 days later.

    The point is that you continually ask folks to provide facts and when they refute your point, you spin it a different way. When folks don't supply facts, you write condescendingly towards them.

    Example:

    "Please won't someone find the flaws in my logic?

    Can't anyone come up with a good reason to continue the current policy?

    Are we just admitting that I am right about this after all?"

    You can't have it both ways.
     
    #127 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  8. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Where did you get that chart? ( I always try to provide the link to my data so others can explore where I gathered it).
     
    #128 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  9. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    andy -- go with this argument...

    1. there is no evidence it is physically addictive

    2. there is no evidence that it hurts people any worse than alcohol

    3. there is no evidence that it will result in accidental deaths any more than alcohol would

    4. the state's interest in banning it is not as strong as it is for harder drugs

    5. given all that, people should be free to consume it responsibly with penalties for those who don't...just like alcohol.
     
    #129 MadMax, Jul 2, 2003
  10. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    I agree. That is why it is useful to use percentages rather than raw numbers. In 1950 4.6/100,000 were homicide victims, in 2001 it was 5.7. Although it is unfortunate, only 1 more person per 100,000 has been the victim of a homicide. It is morally reprehensible, but statistically insignificant. AND it is still a far cry from the HIGHEST level since prohibition considering this number was at 10.2 in 1980.
     
    #130 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  11. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    and there is still no evidence that the one extra murder a year is a result of the prohibition on drugs.
     
    #131 MadMax, Jul 2, 2003
  12. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    I could agree with 1 and 4, but I don't agree with arguing for something by comparing it to something else that is legal, but not necessarily good for you, but that's just me.
     
    #132 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  13. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Max,

    You better edit this, becaaue it is not just 1 more murder per year, it is one more per 100,000.
     
    #133 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  14. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    bobrek -- that's fine...i just think those are the strongest arguments for decriminalizing. in my opinion. i'm no lawyer, but that's the way i'd argue it, given what i know.
     
    #134 MadMax, Jul 2, 2003
  15. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Here is a study. The most relevant portion is in bold. MadMax, I am not disputing your experience, I am pointing out that times have changed. Since programs like "We Card" went nationwide, teenage tobacco and alcohol use has dropped dramatically (according to DD's numbers, 23% and 50% respectively).

    CASA Study Finds mar1juana Easier for Teens to Get Than Beer 9/3/99
    Joe Califano's Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse released results this week of a survey that asked 2,000 teens and 1,000 parents about attitudes and opinions on drugs and drug use. Among the least surprising, if most trumpeted results are findings that teens who have stable relationships with both parents are less likely to use drugs than those who describe their intra-familial relationships as antagonistic.

    Bonnie Ross, a high school prevention, resource and intervention counselor in Oregon, told The Week Online that the issue of kids' parental relationships as a risk factor for substance abuse was a no-brainer.

    "How much did they spend to do that survey?" she asked. "That conclusion would be a pretty obvious one for anyone who works with kids who use or abuse drugs. The money for that survey would have been better spent on resources for these kids. Stable connections, whether it be with parents, educators, coaches, any caring adult, really, serve as an anchor. Kids who feel disconnected and adrift in the world are more likely to seek escape and to engage in high-risk behaviors."

    More interesting, but buried in the news coverage of the report, was the teens' response to a question about the availability of various substances. Specifically, teens were asked which was easier to obtain among cigarettes, beer and mar1juana. While the overwhelming majority of teens listed cigarettes as the easiest, mar1juana was a clear second. In fact, seven times as many teens (35%) listed the prohibited mar1juana as easiest to obtain as listed beer (5%), which of course is legal and regulated.

    Dr. Marsha Rosenbaum, Director of The Lindesmith Center-West, a drug policy think tank, told The Week Online that the availability of mar1juana relative to alcohol is a product of a misguided policy.

    "The question of availability is part of the larger question, that is, what are we getting for our money in the drug war," said Rosenbaum. "We're spending two thirds of our federal drug budget on efforts to keep drugs off the streets. The teenagers in this survey tell us how well that's working. It isn't."

    "Interdiction has never worked, and will never work," she continued. "That is a given. If mar1juana markets were operating under a system similar to alcohol, it would be more difficult for our kids to get access. People who support the status quo in drug policy often smear reform efforts by frightening people with the word "legalization," when in fact what reformers are talking about is regulation and control. Under prohibition, we have no control and thus we have kids who can buy mar1juana at any age with no problem at all."

    It would be a big step, but if managed properly, we could leverage such regulation so that it would actually reduce the number of people who use it. In addition, we could do serious research into the effects it has in order to convince even MORE people not to smoke.
     
    #135 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 2, 2003
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    awww...screw it!! you know what i meant!
    :D

    no matter what the jump is, i don't think we can conclusively say that the jump exists as a result of the criminalization of drugs.
     
    #136 MadMax, Jul 2, 2003
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Sorry, I posted it earlier in the thread.

    http://www.drugwarfacts.org/crime.htm
     
    #137 GladiatoRowdy, Jul 2, 2003
  18. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    I know what you meant ! :)
     
    #138 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
  19. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    andy -- interesting article. you're right, i graduated high school in 92..over 10 years ago. my experience is probably a bit dated. admittedly, i have no clue what is more accessible today.

    no surprise to me that the relationship with the parents is a leading factor...i saw this among my friends on both sides. amazing what comes easier in life when we have moms and dads who act like moms and dads.
     
    #139 MadMax, Jul 2, 2003
  20. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Thanks, the thing about that chart is it is selective. IF the war on drugs contributed to the high homicide rate (incidentally, that chart ends in 1998 and the numbers do appear to line up with the HTML chart I posted), then the war on drugs must have also contributed to the steady decline since 1993.

    In other words, if the war on drugs explains the increase, then what explains the decrease?
     
    #140 bobrek, Jul 2, 2003
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