well this type of situation happens in israel/palestine a lot as well...in israel's illegal occupation of palestine, israelis kill a lot of palestinian at checkpoints under questionable circumstances to say the least and he's a supporter of israel so for him to adopt the position that he did against a checkpoint killing in iraq committed by the us occupying forces didn't suprise me since he's pro-israeli
What are the questionable circumstances? Was the off-limits area not clearly marked? Was the car not actually in said area? Did the car stop when ordered to? Are you just suggesting that any action taken by the American troops in Iraq is questionable since you don't agree with the operation to begin with? Your cousin did the right thing. That officer sounds like a dick that is trying to cover his own ass after an unfortunate outcome from a soldier doing his duty. You have every right to be proud of him.
Let's see... something bad happened in Iraq, so you bring up Israel and Palestinians. Check. Now I'm waiting for the tie-in to Iran, and how wonderful their government is, along with some more wacked-out insults of some of the members here. Don't disappoint me, Creepy. (insert roll-eyes here) Keep D&D Civil.
I can't imagine being put in a position where terrorism occurs every day. It probably eats away the mind along with the fatigue of active duty. I think all Americans agree that occupation should be kept as short as possible. Where we diverge is which objectives should be met before an exit is staged.
you never answered my original question: you said they are supposed to disable the vehicle....how is it that people get murdered all the time when vehicles are being "disabled?" seems like it's more of a shoot to kill policy than anything else...just like the italian secret service agent who was killed and the countless other iraqi innocents who have been killed in the same manner stop acting stupid...i made my case for connecting the israeli occupation with the american one....i didn't insult anybody here either, but you wouldn't know any of this since you probably didn't even read the posts in this thread, you just reacted instead
I think we can all agree that war is stressful and deadly mistakes are made alarmingly too often on a battlefield but that doesn't mean that our troops shouldn't be held accountable. There's a reason why troops aren't tried in civillian courts because civillian juries and law just isn't set up to deal with the context of what happens on a battlefield. We still hold them accountable. I don't know enough about your cousin's situation but I would never consider shooting an unarmed civillian as something to be proud of. Your cousin might not be guilty and very well might be justified to act in the manner he did whether your cousin was wrong or not an unarmed civillian is still died which is a tragedy.
Not to sound callous but if this has happened numerous times, wouldn't people learn to stop? I'm not justifying anyone's actions but as a human who values my own life, I'd probably find myself stopping in that situtation.
I agree totally. War is Hell and there's no such thing as a clean war. Even if the cause is completely just people, lots of people, still die, get horribly injured or suffer terrible hardships both physical and mental. This is what I find so troubling about the invasion of Iraq. We went there based on speculation that didn't pan out and now seek to justify it on grounds that IMO don't rise to pursuing war.
I don't think its that simple. You're dealing with a situation where other groups have set up check points and when you stop you're dragged out of your car and kidnapped or worse. You also have to consider that you're driving along in your own country and you see some people with guns shouting at you in an unintelligible language and gestures you're not familiar with. You have no idea if they're going to shoot you if you don't move or for that matter wouldn't you resent foreigners telling you where you can and can't go in your country.
True but I think it's pretty obvious that the civilians know who is and who isn't a soldier. I would also resent what's going on but I don't think that sacrificing myself to gunfire would solve anything, either.
They disable a vehicle by shooting at the hood (the area where the engine is) with a machine gun. Sometimes there are going to be rounds going into the cabin (the area where the people are) and in some of those cases people are going to be killed. You have to keep shooting until the vehicle is no longer a threat. It is in no way a shoot to kill policy, it is a policy that is in place to protect everyone at the checkpoints, and the population at large, from bombers. It would be great if they had some sort of fool-proof way of disabling a vehicle with no danger to it's occupants, but this isn't Star Trek, we can't just lock them in a tractor beam.
You can't go one post without insulting someone [usually their intelligence]. In this case however it's your typical lack of understanding of a complex issue more than your derision that has left you hanging on a crumbling ledge of logic.
heh, I put that there intentionally because I knew some people wouldn't be able to distinguish troops that do murder civilians (murderers) from those that don't.
June 2, 2006 Premier Accuses U.S. of Attacking Civilians in Iraq By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. BAGHDAD, Iraq, June 1 — Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki lashed out at the American military on Thursday, denouncing what he characterized as habitual attacks by troops against Iraqi civilians. As outrage over reports that American marines killed 24 Iraqis in the town of Haditha last year continued to shake the new government, the country's senior leaders said that they would demand that American officials turn over their investigative files on the killings and that the Iraqi government would conduct its own inquiry. In his comments, Mr. Maliki said violence against civilians had become a "daily phenomenon" by many troops in the American-led coalition who "do not respect the Iraqi people." "They crush them with their vehicles and kill them just on suspicion," he said. "This is completely unacceptable." Attacks on civilians will play a role in future decisions on how long to ask American forces to remain in Iraq, the prime minister added. The denunciation was an unusual declaration for a government that remains desperately dependent on American forces to keep some form of order in the country amid a resilient Sunni Arab insurgency in the west, widespread sectarian violence in Baghdad, and deadly feuding among Shiite militias that increasingly control the south. It was also a sign of the growing pressure on Mr. Maliki, whose governing coalition includes Sunni Arabs who were enraged by news of the killings in Haditha, a city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province. At the same time, he is being pushed by the Americans to resolve the quarreling within his fragile coalition that has left him unable to fill cabinet posts for the Ministries of Defense and the Interior, the two top security jobs in the country. .... In Baghdad, senior Iraqi officials demanded an apology and explanation about Haditha from the United States and vowed their own inquiry. "We in the ministers' cabinet condemned this crime and demanded that coalition forces show the reasons behind this massacre," Deputy Prime Minister Salam al-Zubaie, one of the most powerful Sunni Arabs in the new government, said in an interview. "As you know, this is not the only massacre, and there are a lot," he said. "The coalition forces must change their behavior. Human blood should be sacred regardless of religion, party and nationality." Mr. Zubaie, also the acting defense minister, acknowledged that Iraqi officials would probably not be able to force the extradition of any troops suspected of culpability in the Haditha killings. But he said a committee of five ministers, including defense, interior and finance, would investigate the killings with the expectation that American officials would turn over their files. "We do not have the security file because it is in the hands of the coalition forces," he said. "We hope there will not be obstacles ahead." The crisis over Haditha and other disputed killings in Sunni areas comes just as it appears that military operations may be needed to retake some Sunni areas at risk of falling to the insurgency. This week American forces ordered 1,500 troops from Kuwait into Anbar Province, a stronghold of the Sunni insurgency, in the latest sign that insurgents and terrorist groups including those led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi control much of the sprawling desert region. I..... On Wednesday, American troops near the restive city of Samarra shot and killed two Iraqi women, including one who might have been pregnant and on her way to a hospital, after their car did not heed what the American military command said were repeated warnings to stop. At a news conference in Baghdad, a senior American military spokesman, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, said that "about three or four, at least," allegations of wrongdoing by American troops were being investigated and that anyone found guilty of offenses in those incidents or in the Haditha case would be punished. "This tragic incident is in no way representative of how coalition forces treat Iraqi civilians," he said. ..... http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/sf/nyt6_2_6.htm
Just announced criminal charges are being filed against the Marines (seven I believe) in the Haditha massacre.
I'm proud he made the tough decision that could have saved 6 other U.S. soldiers with him. A similar tactic was used to kill a group of soldiers at a checkpoint (grenade or IED under heavy clothing with the "civilian" not responding when told to stop).
Hang in there Creepy. Over the years for some reason the bbs tends to get nutty if an Muslim/Arab American criticizes US policy in the Middle East or an Asian American criticizes US policy in Asia. I think that it is understandable that someone concerned with American policy in the Middle East would tend to link the American atrocities at roadblocks and as occupiers with the tactics and similar brutality of the Israeli occupation. In fact there has been much comment about how Israeli advisors, due to their long experience, have been consulted about tactics for locking down and controlling the occupied Arab population in Iraq .
Thankfully my cousin is still alive, with more than one justified confirmed kill. I'm very proud of that!
No, considering the officer couldn't make a decision, and froze up. All the other soldiers heartfully thanked my cousin for making the best informed decision before it possibly could have been too late. It was reported as it should have been and my cousin was vindicated as using justifiable force.
