Netenyahu wins, but there may be a little good news too..

No, some of them are aligned with the Evangelicals, which only care about Israel because they need Israel for the End of Days.

 

Exactly. They "care" about Israel for reasons other than what is best for the Israel in the long term.

 

Another informative post, thanks - but you're preaching to the choir. I was simply pointing out that many neo-cons see the middle east (and indeed, much of the world) in black and white, with Israel as a "free beacon of westernization and democracy" surronded by Islamists - which (as you point out) is far from the case.

 

Absolutely, there certainly are SOME that do. It's telling that some of the most conservative administrations were the ones that clashed with Israeli leadership.

Nixon, for sure, and a lot of Reagan / Bush I people, particularly James Baker who was called an Arabist and anti-semite for criticizing the Settlements. It was much more ok to be critical of Israel in the 70s and 80s and there were some frankly good calls when dealing with the likes of guys like Shamir (who was openly anti-American).

Edit: It also warrants adding that until Israel had it's right-wing shift, Israel wasn't "our little buddy fighting the bad people." Back in the socialist days, they were, for many, "those damn pinko Jews." My very Christian grandmother had some blue-haired senior citizen friends that still couldn't call it "Israel" and would refer to it only as "The Holy Land."

There's a lot of old well-warranted Cold War loyalty (people like my grandparents, probably Basso ), and then there's the kids that never grew up that love military history and Heinlein (Newt Gingrich, tallanvor) that view Israel mistakenly as a romantic modern Sparta. And then there's the religious nuts (Glenn Beck) who don't understand that they are useful idiots being used cynically to lend support to very unpopular things.

What bothers me more are Jewish people from the US, Canada, the UK, Australia, etc who are egalitarian and reasonable in their politics and in their own country, but encounter some sort of logic disruption field when it comes to Israel, even when they live here.

When I talk to them I can see them struggling with a lot of cognitive dissonance, because it's still ingrained in them that everything Israel does is good, and to point out anything to the contrary makes you a traitor, which is...disappointing.

I have a friend who I was talking to once in an Arab-owned hummus shop and got upset with me when I called her out for being such a hypocrite, when she had little sympathy for friends of mine facing deportation after living here legally for years and paying taxes and so on.

Mind you, she was born in England, has lived her for four years, speaks three words of Hebrew, and knows next to nothing about the history of the state, and lives better than I do because of her rich Daddy.

She said, in a restaurant that was founded when her family was still living in a shtetl in the Ukraine:

"But you don't understand, it's MY country. It's for Jews."


There's a lot of that.

 

Sorry, I wasn't attacking you, just your father's fallacy.

 

Don't sweat it, I do it to him all the time.

Israel seems like it would and should be a great place to live with a rich, cultural infusion. But, after reading your posts (and last week's article in TIME) it appears to me that it's slowly becoming more of a closed society.

 

Interesting. So if the US were surrounded by enemies, you'd support restricting gun rights, a single-payer health system, and national labor unions?

 

You may know this, but they are shipping 30 round AR mags as we speak to those of us here under siege by infringement 2nd admendment attacks without the price gouging. They are shipping thousands daily, to check it out Google mako group. Then mags...from what I heard they are on larger back order tho.

 

If surrounded by enemies trying to annihilate America, I would support many things I normally wouldn't. None on your list would I support.

Israel isn't perfect, but Deji straight up asked why it gets so much support from Libertarians/Conservatives (as opposed to liberals). The reason is simple. It is the only free democracy in the Middle East. Libertarians/Conservatives love democracy. Liberals far less. Not a complicated question.

The middle east isn't a constant pain the world's ass and if it stands any chance of catching up to the rest of the modern world then Israel needs to survive/strive. Another Muslim authoritarian regime won't help.

 

Did you hear this from your skewed polls guy?

 

The definition of democracy is a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority . Libertarian/Conservatives seem to not like government. If a majority of the people like Healthcare would Conservatives be for healthcare?

 

I like everyone having an equal say in their government. Doesn't mean I agree with the majorities choices......... (maybe I don't understand what you are trying to say)

I also have no idea what you mean by 'Healthcare' ? Single-payer system'?

Who is my skewed polls guy?

It's just an observation (being okay with executive orders, the pushing through of Obamacare (Massachusetts denied a Senate vote), etc...)

 

Liberals hate democracy so much.

They supported a Middle East policy that installed dictators around the Middle East so that Israel could trumpet its' one democracy status.

An Arab Spring later? meh.

 

Every President - GOP and Dem - has used executive orders. I don't recall conservatives complaining about that in the past. And as for Obamacare, I didn't realize having Congress debate a bill for 9 months and then pass it with a super-majority in both houses was anti-Democratic.

The stupid people who you were quoting in these gems:

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=6785682&postcount=191
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=7275084&postcount=2

They said what you wanted to hear and you bought it hook, line, and sinker.

 

Depends what you use an executive order for. No not all executive orders are immoral (not sure why you keep trying to make this blanket statement. You are arguing with nobody). Obviously.

Do u recall Scott Brown getting a vote? Probably not.

So who's my skewed polls guy? Can't believe you actually went digging so much for a dodge.

 

Yeah, I kinda think they just figure the Jews are whiter and closer to Christianity.

 

The fact that Kennedy died and congress proceeded with their procedures doesn't mean it was rushed or undemocratic. Try again.

 

What I was wondering is why conservatives project their own unrealistic fantasies on Israel instead of judging it for it's own merits, good and bad.

I don't think liberals are any less supportive of Israel, or democracy (especially not in the US). And perhaps they are just as historically guilty of confusing their own party with Avoda (Labor). Even Rabin, the great peacemaker, was a retired general who not only was the chief of staff that conquered the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, he was the biggest advocate of Settlement building at the time. If you recall, the Democrats sent Carville to Israel after Bibi's first stinit as PM to get Barak elected for "peace." While he won, he not only didn't follow through and killed negotiations, he later had no qualms about serving as Bibi's defense minister and nearly killing his own party in order to keep his cabinet position.

Americans in general are VERY supportive of Israel. It's telling that Bill Clinton is still extremely popular here.

The other point I was trying to make, and clearly failed in, was that as much as you might like Israel for being "conservative" it isn't conservative the same way you or most conservative Americans are. There is no Constitution, or respect for the rule of law or limited government. And in many regards, it's not conservative at all.

There were three right-wingers who were well known for being principled classical liberals and challenging party brass when it reached too far. They are referred to as the long-serving "princes" of the Likud due to their tenure and commitment to democratic ideals and principle, and despite being very conservative, were respected by everyone (including me): Dan Meridor, Benny Begin (son of Menachim Begin), and Mickey Eitan. Look those guys up and read about them, because if there IS anyone in Israel whose ideals are similar to yours or American conservatives, it's them, not Bibi.

They were kicked out of the Likud list last November and no longer have jobs, paving the way for extreme right wingers to take their place like Moshe Feiglin and Danny Danon, who will get at the very least, deputy cabinet positions if not full cabinet positions in the new government.

 

I don't believe I have ever claimed to support Israel because of some perceived conservative values. I support Israel because it is the lone beacon of democracy in the archaic ****hole called the middle east. It must be strong and successful for the betterment of all mankind. I support Netenyahu because he gives Israel the best chance of surviving.

 

And yet Deji has pointed out how internally Israel is ****ed because of the type of governments being produced in Israel. How can you claim Netanyahu is the best leader for Israel. He has tolerated and allowed to fester a religious community that leaches off of the state and a settler community that is basically paid off to live in the West Bank while producing no economic growth. Now granted this has been a problem going back to the Labor government that allowed the first settlement but Netanyahu has been as bad as any when it comes to dealing with them

Netanyahu has done zilch for transitioning Israel into a world where they wont have the luxury of importing some of the best human capital in the world. Today the brightest are leaving the country and the system is failing to replace them.

That's on the governments of Israel have not had the foresight to actually deal with the problems of the state. The protest over housing and income inequality were evidence enough of this problem. What has Netanyahu done for the demographic problems of the state. The state's population growth now consists of Arabs and Orthodox Jews (neither of which pay taxes to the state)

You can wax poetic about survival but when the basic foundations of the Jewish state are rotting because of decades of poor leadership (that to be fair go back to governments before Netanyahu) how can you say he's the best leader.

The best leader for Israel would be one who puts the country on a path with a sustainable future. That leader would improve the education system, create a long term plan for natural resources and work towards a solution to preserve the Jewish identity of the state. In 50 years the Arab community will be so large that Israel will barely qualify as a Jewish state anymore. A leader would cut a deal with the Palestinians and create a real Palestinian state so the Arab community can call a country its home. You can whine and cry about negotiating with terrorists but at the end of the day Israel is the big loser in all of this.

Netanyahu is as guilty as anyone else of only viewing things through a very short-term and narrow lens at the expense of the future of his country. He hasn't shown a shred of courage in any leadership decisions. I would say he's been one of the worst leaders of Israel in quite a while.