Netenyahu wins, but there may be a little good news too..

dafuq?...

 

The irony about tall's post is that almost all the american jews I know hate the guy, hell every non-extremist Israeli doesn't like the guy either.

 

If you look at public opinion polls, American Jews and Israeli Jews have opposite views on most issues. The polls basically show that Israeli-Americans are clueless on issues facing Israel itself.

 

That's true, if you believe 31 out of 120 is a majority.

 

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=7564702&postcount=9

This post was made in this thread by Deji, who I am pretty sure lives in Israel. His post contradicts your claim on Netenyahu.

 

One person doesn't represent the population as a whole - sample size must be at least 30 (Central Limit Theorem). Netanyahu has kept Israel's economy on stable ground and has kept domestic violence down.

 

Right-wing representatives (regardless of party) hold 61 seats, which is enough to form a coalition.

 

Are you from Israel or US? American Jew or Israel Jew?

 

Really?

The Jerusalem Post even disagrees:

 

That coalition isn't going to happen though. He's going to partner with Yair Lapid and throw the religious parties under the bus (as well he should).

 

I don't get the right-wing American love for Israel, a country that has a single national (and corrupt) labor union, punitive taxes for the middle class, a single payer health system (no complaints about that), wages at about a third of the US for white collar jobs, no separation between religion and state, gun ownership laws that are stricter than most Western European countries, a serious brain drain to Europe and the US, and property and rent prices comparable to Southern California.

And all of this under mostly Likud governments since the late 70s.

The Israeli economy survived as long as it did due to Internet startups, and Jeffrey Fisher buying Euros and Dollars to keep the shekel undervalued to stave off inflation. The average Israeli is trying to survive on a bit more than $1000 a month with cost of living at least double that of the US, with much higher taxes.

No one should expect to come here and find a Libertarian utopia.

The only thing stranger is that the Israeli electorate, as much as they profess to hate Obama, and tend to vote center-right as a rule, are still in love with Bill Clinton. He's by far their favorite head of state in the last 25 years.

 

It's the only free democracy in the Middle East (aka the only chance the Middle East has at a better existence). I don't get liberals desire to see such a place destroyed. Probably has to do with their love of executive orders and burning hatred of democracy.

As far as all the rest of the stuff you posted; Israel gets a pass for these things because it's in a perpetual state of war. When you are surrounded by radical dictatorships constantly trying to wipe you off the face of the Earth, stricter measures (less rights and freedoms) may need to be applied (see American Civil War).

 

It's because [in their minds] Israel represents the frontline on the war against America's middle eastern enemy. My father, who is a neo-con, raves about how Israel "doesn't apologize" for "protecting itself". Israel represents Western culture in the eastern land, and thus deserves our admiration and protection for valiently fending off the Arab menace.

 

Except that Hizbollah and Hamas aren't really an enemy of the US. Iran, sure, but at least the other guys have a beef that's regional. Iran is everyone's problem

What country does? I mean Russia and China do much less to justify their actions and no one wants to give them any cookies.

I think this is the largest fallacy of all, for several reasons.

1. At least half of the Jewish Israelis are Mizrachi, which are no more than a few generations descended from Morocco, Iraq, Yemen, Tunisia, Iran and other places that can hardly be considered as western culture. That isn't to say that many don't have democratic principles, but I'd say the vast majority don't value them and tend to hold a very ethnocentric point of view and are disdainful of European and American customs.

And at least 20% are immigrants since the early 90s from the former Soviet Union. This is not an electorate with values in sync of say, Texas or Holland

Israelis with a western orientation are not only a minority, but they are a shrinking minority, and even among those, many are nationalistic and view settling the biblical land of Israel as more important than preserving democracy. When asked, they'll state it plainly: "It is more important that Israel remain Jewish than democratic."

2. The only nearby nations that aren't military allies of the US (Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia) and don't have friendly relations with the US (Cyprus, Lebanon, The Palestinian Authority) are Syria, Hizbollah (who are part of the Lebanese government) and Hamas.

If Palestinians are part of the "Arab menace" it must pain your father that US policy has been against settlement building since 1967 and that massive amounts of US tax dollars are committed to building infrastructure and training the PA security forces since the Oslo accords in the early 90s.

3. Israel is a democracy, and I'd even venture to say that in some ways, it's better than others. The press is still free (though consolidation is happening now), 12 out out of 30-something parties make it to office (from Islamic to communist, to socialist to democratic to fascist), health care is affordable for everyone and not tied to your job, and basic food items
(bread, produce, milk) are subsidized to keep food costs affordable for the poor.

4. On the downside, that democracy only applies to people who are inside the Green Line, and only Jewish people who live outside it. And even still, Arab voter turnout is very low for the ones who can vote and view the Arab parties as corrupt and useless.

5. Israel's greatest threat isn't internal enemies, it is it's own internal demographic one: uneducated ultra-orthodox Jews having 10+ kids who refuse to work, and Arabs, both voting citizens inside the state proper, and ones in the West Bank with no right to vote.

5. For Israel to survive economically and socially, it has to cut off the freebies to the ultra-Orthodox and make them pull their own weight. This new coalition is going to address that for the first time...ever. The ultra-Orthodox always had enough representation to be kingmakers in any coalition and always got their payoff.

6. But as the saying goes, for it to survive as a democracy, it needs a two state solution. Guys like Yair Lapid sell it (smartly) as a "divorce" for those that view peace as a bad word. 70% of Israelis desire "peace" but 70% also don't trust Arabs. Obviously, those aren't the same 70%, but the crossover is mainstream Israel.

7. No right-wing party will survive if it advocates negotiating with the Palestinians. Too many view building the territories as a mandate from God and/or a national and patriotic project of upmost importance. Anyone who says otherwise is a self-loathing Jew or an anti-semite and should be ignored

8. There used to be reasonable right-wingers, but they are all dying off or have already been kicked out of the Likud. What remains are people like Yair Lapid (a TV talkshow host without a high school dipolma) and Tzipi Livni (an ex-Mossad agent who got a whole 6 seats for campaigning on peace). And they are what comprises the bulk of the "center."

9. No one should confuse Likud with the US Republican Party. The Likud platform is extremely ethocentric, with authoritarian tendencies, and advocates a government much bigger than any of you would see with Obama and a Democratic majority in both houses. It has, in the past, given tax amnesty to millionaires and raised taxes on the poor and especially the middle class (which here, means anyone making more than say, $2000 a month).

10. I haven't touched the fact that Israel has two Chief Rabbis and rabbinical courts, who unfortunately have a monopoly on issues like marriage. There is no seperation between church and state. Some municipalities will fine you for serving pork or shellfish or staying open late on Fridays. Public transportation is closed most of the weekend everywhere other than Haifa.

11. There is a libertarian party here called Ale Yarok (Green Leaf). They are for drug legalization, secularization, and a free economy (in this case, an argument for small businesses and competition vs the status quo of monoloplies and cronyism). I'm no Austrian, but I appreciate the Ron Paul-light voice being added to the discussion, but they fare worse than the Da'am Worker's Party (left of the "official"communist Party, Hadash) and several fringe right wing parties that demand a theocracy and have no seats.

Meretz is well left of the US Democratic Party, but they are probably the least corrupt, and most consistent in their pro-peace, pro-Two state orientation. They resemble most left of center European parties. They have 6 seats.

There's Tzipi Livni's party, which is reasonable and fairly western. Also six seats.

There's Labor (Avoda) but they are probably more corrupt than Tammany Hall and their own internal process rewards apparatchiks and career politicians.

That's as close as you get to US or European political parties, unless you also count the communists

As for Hadash, they always advocated a single democratic state, and have a mixed Jewish / Arab list of Knesset members, but even as a protest vote, they shot themselves in the foot with their rallies in the last few years, organizing demonstrations in support of Assad in Syria.

12. In short, the people who are educated, and do have Western values (right OR left) are increasingly marginalized, and if they are young enough, are the ones leaving.

13. Even if you are aware of all these things, and STILL support Nettanyahu, this election was NOT a victory for him. He's a lame duck within his own party who has lasted as long as he has by trying to have things both ways. He's a very weak leader that speaks excellent English and is a master of telling any given room what they want to hear. In the US, that's pretty easy.

In Israel, as you can see, it's much harder. He's not nationalistic and/or religious enough for the settlers and traditional (mostly Mizrachi) Likud voters.

He's not tough enough to stand up to the religious authorities for the secular, right-wing Russians in Yisrael Beitenu that are 11 of the 31 seats his party has. They are fine with settlements and perpetual war, but they want their bacon, they want civil marriage, they want to stop being discriminated against, and they are REALLY upset about the new tax he made...wait for it...over a dollar a beer.

He's too corporatist for the middle and upper middle-class who want lower taxes and run their own businesses that struggle to compete. And want housing prices lower, and rent lower, and the price of cottage cheese (not joking) lower...

And he's too capitalistic and pro-settlement and anti-EU and anti-US for the Left (of course).

He's done, and in my opinion, destroyed his party.

 

You're insane.

 

sweet argument. Thanks for stopping by the Debate & Discussion Forum.

 

the number of executive orders issued by President Obama is grossly exaggerated here. By our count, as of 28 September 2012 the total number of executive orders issued by President Obama was 138, not 923. Moreover, compared to President Obama's predecessors in the White House, this is not an unusually large number of orders for a modern president: President George W. Bush issued 291 executive orders during his eight years in office, while President Bill Clinton issued 364 such orders over the same span of time.


Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/executiveorders.asp#Ejez7zv80wRuu8Ck.99

 

Deji, do you think the right wing conservatives in the US understand or care about the real Israel?

 

I didn't reference how many executive orders Obama has given...........

how can it be exaggerated?