1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Neocon- Military Split: Cakewalk vs casualties 100's of K GI's to Fight & Occupy?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Mar 29, 2003.

  1. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ooops, I made a mistake, I counted the 1st as one division when it's three, armored, cavalry, and infantry.
     
  2. Ilovethisgame

    Ilovethisgame Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    i read the paper this mourning where i live
    a soldiers asked the reporter, what will u do if u see a iraqis gunman standing behind a civilian? the reporter said i will hold up my camera and take picture immediately. the reporter ask the soldier back what will u do? the soldier said i will fire , becuz i gotta go home.....
    why war?
     
  3. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,072
    Likes Received:
    3,601
    Iraq
    Sat Mar 29, 6:39 PM ET Add Politics - Reuters to My Yahoo!

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld repeatedly rejected advice from Pentagon (news - web sites) planners that substantially more troops and armor would be needed to fight a war in Iraq (news - web sites), New Yorker Magazine reported.

    In an article for its April 7 edition, which goes on sale on Monday, the weekly said Rumsfeld insisted at least six times in the run-up to the conflict that the proposed number of ground troops be sharply reduced and got his way.

    "He thought he knew better. He was the decision-maker at every turn," the article quoted an unidentified senior Pentagon planner as saying. "This is the mess Rummy put himself in because he didn't want a heavy footprint on the ground."

    It also said Rumsfeld had overruled advice from war commander Gen. Tommy Franks to delay the invasion until troops denied access through Turkey could be brought in by another route and miscalculated the level of Iraqi resistance.

    "They've got no resources. He was so focused on proving his point -- that the Iraqis were going to fall apart," the article, by veteran journalist Seymour Hersh, cited an unnamed former high-level intelligence official as saying.

    A spokesman at the Pentagon declined to comment on the article.

    Rumsfeld is known to have a difficult relationship with the Army's upper echelons while he commands strong loyalty from U.S. special operations forces, a key component in the war.

    He has insisted the invasion has made good progress since it was launched 10 days ago, with some ground troops 50 miles from the capital, despite unexpected guerrilla-style attacks on long supply lines from Kuwait.

    Hersh, however, quoted the former intelligence official as saying the war was now a stalemate.

    Much of the supply of Tomahawk cruise missiles has been expended, aircraft carriers were going to run out of precision guided bombs and there were serious maintenance problems with tanks, armored vehicles and other equipment, the article said.

    "The only hope is that they can hold out until reinforcements arrive," the former official said.

    The article quoted the senior planner as saying Rumsfeld had wanted to "do the war on the cheap" and believed that precision bombing would bring victory.

    Some 125,000 U.S. and British troops are now in Iraq. U.S. officials on Thursday said they planned to bring in another 100,000 U.S. soldiers by the end of April.
     
  4. Panda

    Panda Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    1
    It's clear that Iraq's military strategy so far is to preserve their forces, avoid open terrain battles and prolong the war. Their sitting out, therefore, isn't necessarily related to sitting on the fence as a result of war propoganda.

    It's also reported that Saddam delegated commandership down the command chain, to the local commanders, to add flexibilty If true, chances increases for that orders to move or act to these armies from Baghdad might be decoy baits to hook the enemies up. Basically, it doesn't say a whole lot is my point.
     
  5. Panda

    Panda Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2002
    Messages:
    4,130
    Likes Received:
    1
    One more thing, Treeman. I'm curious as to the sensitivity of your leaking out war info such as being able to intercept top enemy communications, such as orders to the Iraqi armies. It sounds like telling the Nazi's Germany that the Allies got a hold on the enigma code machine. I'm not a military expert, so enlighten me if my curiosity is unwarranted.
     
  6. treeman

    treeman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 1999
    Messages:
    7,146
    Likes Received:
    261
    Woofer:

    I find it offensive that you'd just blithely accuse us of murdering civilians. This tells me that you don't know anyone in the military; if you did then you would know that we are super-sensitive about that issue. I also think that you know that that's BS - you know damn well that we do all that we can to avoid killing civilians. Leave the mindless propaganda at the doorstep, and I'll stop the childish namecalling. :)

    Panda:

    Were they just sitting out, then they would be digging in or already in defensive positions. They are not - they are just sitting there. Also, a good number of them have simply changed clothes and walked off into the desert/city...

    Where is their 3 Corps? It had 3 divisions, and we have not destroyed or captured three divisions. It just disappeared. (we have captured quite a bit of it, and those we captured tell us that people are deserting in droves)

    I find it hard to believe that Saddam would delegate responsibility down that far; he has never done that before simply because he doesn't trust anyone. The last thing he wants is whole divisions surrendering or switching sides...

    As for giving away info - nothing I tell you here is going to be information that you're not allowed to hear. I have a Secret clearance, but I am not a friggen squeal. Everything you hear from me will be verifiable thru commercial channels, ie reported on the news/net/somewhere. The fact that we intercept their radio signals is well known, especially to them. There's nopthing they can do about it except stage false transmissions (which I'm sure that they do).
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,072
    Likes Received:
    3,601
    We see that the neocon chickenhawks may have underestimated the Iraqis nationalism and desire to fight an American invasion. They were blinded by their ideology and desire to sell this war. They largely ignored the advice of experienced military men.

    Similarly we have the neocons downplaying the advice of senior military men on how many troops it will take to continue occupying Iraq after we take over.

    This makes you wonder if they were wrong to ignore the advice of experienced CIA and State Deparment officials also. The CIA has warned that they thought this preemptive attack on Iraq would lead to even more terrorism against American citizens. The State Department has apparently concluded that this war will not lead to democracy in the Arab world.
     
  8. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,072
    Likes Received:
    3,601
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Posted on Fri, Mar. 28, 2003

    Rumsfeld pressures Franks to take Baghdad quickly, sources say
    BY JOSEPH L. GALLOWAY
    jgalloway@krwashington.com

    WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his civilian aides have pressed Army Gen. Tommy Franks, the head of the U.S. Central Command, to attack the Republican Guard divisions defending Baghdad as soon as Air Force planes and Army attack helicopters have softened them up, according to Pentagon officials.

    The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said the civilian war planners want to clear the way for a swift takedown of Saddam Hussein's regime in the Iraqi capital.

    So it apparently falls to one heavy Army division, one light Army division and a division-plus force of Marine infantry to destroy at least two and possibly more Republican Guard tank divisions dug in and blocking the approaches to Baghdad.

    In other words, roughly 100,000 U.S. servicemen could face about 30,000 Iraqi troops, not enough for the 4 or 5 to 1 ratio that conventional military doctrine calls for when attacking an entrenched enemy.

    The Americans are far better trained and equipped than the Iraqis, and they have a huge technological edge, especially when fighting at night. But military analysts say there may not be enough of them to do the job.

    Softening up the Medina, Baghdad and Hammurabi divisions from the air will be absolutely vital to success. The question is whether the Air Force is willing to take on the job.

    One retired general who has closely followed the unfolding war plan told Knight Ridder that the U.S. ground commanders in the Persian Gulf are privately unhappy with the amount of close air support their troops are getting from the Air Force, and likewise are unhappy that ``all of the intelligence assets have been diverted to support the Air Force in downtown Baghdad, leaving little or nothing for the ground forces.''

    He also said the Army's 3rd Infantry Division and V Corps were forced to leave behind most of their long-range Multiple Launch Rocket Systems. Rumsfeld told them that air power would do the job. ``But it is not doing the job so far. It is focused elsewhere.''

    The general, who also asked not to be identified, said the 3rd Infantry was sent to war with only one battalion of MLRS rocket-launched artillery, a powerful long-range system that can reach out 30 miles and obliterate more than a third of a square mile of enemy soldiers or enemy tanks. Usually, it would have brought two brigades of MLRS launchers, about six battalions.

    The V Corps also was sent into battle with one battalion of MLRS launchers when usually it would have a separate brigade (three battalions) to support its attack helicopters and several more brigades for general operations.

    What this means is that the front-line forces, which use the deadly MLRS rockets to soften up the enemy positions while U.S. forces are still out of range of Iraq's artillery, are now depending on the Air Force to attack the Republican Guard divisions and clear the way for Apache attack helicopters to kill the enemy tanks.

    The general said he hoped that Franks could ''get the Air Force to step up to the plate'' and work on the targets important to the ground commanders and work with the Apaches. ''The Air Force really hates having to do this,'' he said.

    A senior Air Force official, William Bodie, said this wasn't true. ''Way more than a third of the 600-700 daily sorties have been in support of ground forces. There has been a tremendous amount of progress in our ground support efforts since Afghanistan,'' he said.

    Bodie said most of the damage to 30 Army Apache helicopters that conducted a long-range raid on the Medina Division earlier this week was caused by small-arms fire. ``That's guerrilla war stuff, Viet Cong stuff. The Apaches were flying very low over a flat floodplain area and they were very vulnerable. There's nothing we or the MLRS artillery could have done about that.''

    Pentagon officials said Rumsfeld had been pressing Franks to attack the Republican Guard outside Baghdad without waiting for the 4th Infantry Division (Mechanized) to arrive from Fort Hood, Texas, and the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, its scout unit, to be flown into the battle zone from Fort Carson, Colo. Neither will be ready for battle for at least three weeks.

    Miami Herald
     
  9. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
    I did not say murder. I said kill. You chose that word, not me. Also, a quote from a US marine today to the BBC radio,
    which should be expected considering the situation on the ground : Be professional, be polite, but be prepared to kill anyone. It's too bad you have to choose the manipulation and changing of my words in order to make your argument.

    I was unaware that serving or knowing someone in the military was a prerequisite to be able to voice an opinion. If that's your logic, we could eliminate most of the Bush administration because they shirked their duty in Vietnam and/or Korea. Look it up.

    Back on topic: on the BBC as well today someone from the Cato Institute was interviewed and he said that civilians wanted a force potentially as small as 70000, and that the military wanted 500,000. He said we won't know the truth, is Rumsfeld telling the truth in denial today or is Seymour Hersh's sources, until they write their memoirs.
     
  10. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
    I meant to say the military leaders and Rumsfeld's memoirs are written in the above post.

    One papers' analysis:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...30mar30,1,675233.story?coll=la-home-headlines

    The multiple insiders off the record comments you can take or leave.

    America's Real Enemy May Be Time
    The U.S. is trying to beat the clock of politics, knowing that the longer war lasts, the more complicated its effects at home and abroad.




    New Today

    British Forces Capture Iraqi General in Basra

    Rumsfeld: Fiercest Fighting Ahead

    Iraq Threatens More Suicide Bombings

    Real Enemy May Be Time

    City Streets: Dangerous War Zones

    101st's Rush of Anxiety and Relief

    Key Events in War to Date




    Military Operations


    U.S.-Backed Kurds Advance in the North


    Cornered, Guerrillas Flee Their Mountain Hide-Outs


    Bush, Aides Focus on Hussein's Atrocities


    The 'Whens?' of War Blow Up a Storm


    Allied Forces May Be Quicker to Fire


    more >


















    By Doyle McManus, Times Staff Writer


    WASHINGTON -- As President Bush and his aides dig in for a longer war than first hoped for, they face a sobering prospect: Longer and tougher combat will create a ripple effect of problems stretching from the battlefield to the rest of the world -- including the home front.

    A worst-case scenario of brutal, drawn-out urban warfare in Baghdad would not only cost the lives of many more U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians, it would sharpen anti-American passions in the Islamic world and could even slow an economic recovery in the United States.

    "In chaos theory, it's said that a single beat of a butterfly's wing can cause a tornado somewhere else," said John Lewis Gaddis, a historian at Yale University. "We're in one of these butterfly situations now.... The longer the war goes on, the more difficulties we're going to have elsewhere in the world."

    It's still possible that the war could end in a matter of weeks, without house-to-house fighting in the Iraqi capital.

    "We will know a whole lot more when the battle of Baghdad begins," said Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). "That battle will have a big effect on the length of it. But I still believe it will be a short war -- a month or two months."

    But the stiff resistance shown by Iraqi forces in the last week has forced administration officials to consider the prospect of a longer, costlier war, and the spinoff effects it could have.

    "So much depends on what we have to end up doing about Baghdad," said an advisor to the Bush administration. "There are no palatable options in urban warfare."

    Administration officials acknowledge that public expectations of a quick and easy war -- fed, in their view, by overenthusiastic media reports -- could create real political problems at home. Even a few Republican members of Congress privately expressed unease in briefings about the war last week: "Is this going to get worse?" one asked, according to an aide.

    That's one reason Bush and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld launched a major effort last week to manage expectations. "We have seen mood swings in the media from highs to lows to highs and back again, sometimes in a single 24-hour period," Rumsfeld complained. "Fortunately, my sense is that the American people have a very good center of gravity."

    Their vigorous defense of the war's progress reflected another factor in administration thinking: The long-term results of the war -- not only how soon victory might come, but what kind of victory it might be -- depends on the clash of arms and on how it is perceived around the world.

    "The next several weeks will determine" what kind of victory the United States can claim, Gaddis said. "They will not necessarily produce a final resolution to the war, but they will tell us what kind of war we're in."

    An early victory could have the effect of legitimizing Bush's decision to go to war and confirming America's status as an unchallengeable superpower. And if, on the way, U.S. troops find Iraqi chemical or biological weapons, "that could turn the whole psychology around, all over the world," Gaddis said.

    But a long and costly war could send the opposite message: However intimidating U.S. military power appears, it can still be stymied -- at least temporarily -- by a determined guerrilla force.

    A long war would mean more civilian casualties, more anger in the Arab world and a more difficult postwar challenge in rebuilding Iraq. It would mean more cost to Americans in both blood and treasure, dampen the chances for a domestic economic recovery, and potentially weaken Bush's chances of reelection. And it would provide more opportunities for crises to occur elsewhere -- in North Korea, Pakistan or Jordan.

    "This is a very tricky period; relatively minor events can have big consequences," Gaddis said. "We've gone beyond strategy now. What happens on the ground is what matters."

    In Iraq itself, some administration officials acknowledge they were surprised by the persistence of forces fighting for Saddam Hussein's regime.

    "In a region that didn't want us to go to war in the first place, there is developing some admiration for brave little Iraq," said a former senior official and Republican who asked not to be named. "I'm not sure it's going to make Saddam a folk hero. But the longer it goes, the more people that get killed, the more we're going to look like a bully.... And that will have an impact on the postwar world."

    In the region around Iraq, a longer war will make it more difficult for Arab countries such as Saudi Arabia and Jordan that are quietly supporting the U.S. war effort against the grain of their own public opinion.

    "It's going to have an impact on other regimes and their willingness to cooperate with us," said Robert Oakley, a former U.S. ambassador to Pakistan. "It's not likely to topple them, although Jordan is worth worrying about.

    "The CIA already expects to get less cooperation" from Arab intelligence services, he added -- and that "will make counter-terrorism more difficult."

    The nature of the war will also affect how difficult and how long the U.S.-run postwar occupation of Iraq will be.

    "The longer the war, the longer the occupation is likely to be," said Rep. John M. Spratt Jr. (D-S.C.), a senior member of the House Armed Services Committee. He said a longer war would produce more damage to clean up and "a more embittered population in Iraq."

    In clan-based Iraqi society, another former diplomat warned, "if you kill 500 militiamen, you make 4,000 enemies. You aren't going to get much of a welcome from people whose husbands, sons and brothers you've just killed."

    Public opinion in Europe, already largely opposed to the war, will probably consider its views confirmed if civilian casualties mount -- and that could pose problems for allied leaders such as Britain's Tony Blair and Spain's Jose Maria Aznar, who have supported Bush despite public pressures.

    In the United States, pollsters say, public support for the war is holding steady at more than 70%, even though an increasing number of Americans say they expect more U.S. military casualties.

    Public support appears unlikely to flag significantly as long as the war lasts less than six months, and as long as it appears on course toward victory, pollsters say.

    But that doesn't mean support for the war -- or for Bush -- is unconditional.

    "I think the American people are going to be there for the long haul," said Michael K. Deaver, a former advisor to President Reagan. "But if we sustain massive casualties ... and if it looks as if we put troops in harm's way because somebody made mistakes, then all bets are off."

    Two other factors will affect U.S. public opinion -- and Bush's political future: the success of the postwar occupation, and the effect of the war and its aftermath on the domestic economy.

    "The longer the war, the more willing people will be to criticize Bush and his policies," said Mickey Kantor, a former advisor to President Clinton. "This is not Vietnam, and it's not going to be Vietnam. But if it starts to feel like some kind of quagmire, people will be willing to talk about it. And if it adversely affects the economy ... it will make Bush more vulnerable to criticism on that issue."

    So far, the war's economic effect has been only short-term: a wild swing of expectations and stock market prices, from pessimism to optimism and back again. But the longer the war, the more persistent the uncertainty that many economists believe is delaying many big business investments -- and holding up a broad economic recovery.

    "Expectations are probably swinging too widely," said Richard D. Rippe, chief economist at Prudential Securities. "But a longer war would have some foreseeable impacts. The first one would be its impacts on the markets, particularly the oil markets. The stock market would be under more pressure.... And a prolonged period of uncertainty would make consumers hesitant to spend."

    The direct costs of the war, while stiff, are unlikely to change the economy's basic course, economists say. Spratt said the Congressional Budget Office has estimated that waging war in Iraq costs roughly $7 billion to $8 billion per month, and a postwar occupation could cost $1 billion to $4 billion per month.

    So the nature of the occupation -- short and smooth, or long and bumpy -- could have even greater economic and political impact than the war itself.

    "There were people in the White House who hoped that this [war] would be a panacea, that it would cure the economy and make the president unbeatable," a Republican insider said. "It's not quite working that way. And that makes this period a very delicate one for Bush -- a very delicate stage."

    *
     
  11. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
  12. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
  13. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
  14. Woofer

    Woofer Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2000
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    1
    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/01/international/worldspecial/01PENT.html


    Rumsfeld's Design for War Criticized on the Battlefield
    By BERNARD WEINRAUB with THOM SHANKER


    CORPS HEADQUARTERS, near the Kuwait-Iraq border, March 31 — Long-simmering tensions between Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Army commanders have erupted in a series of complaints from officers on the Iraqi battlefield that the Pentagon has not sent enough troops to wage the war as they want to fight it.

    Here today, raw nerves were obvious as officers compared Mr. Rumsfeld to Robert S. McNamara, an architect of the Vietnam War who failed to grasp the political and military realities of Vietnam.

    One colonel, who spoke on the condition that his name be withheld, was among the officers criticizing decisions to limit initial deployments of troops to the region. "He wanted to fight this war on the cheap," the colonel said. "He got what he wanted."

    The angry remarks from the battlefield opened with comments made last Thursday — and widely publicized Friday — by Lt. Gen. William S. Wallace, the V Corps commander, who said the military faced the likelihood of a longer war than many strategists had anticipated.

    The comments echo the tension in the bumpy relationship between Mr. Rumsfeld and Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, the Army chief of staff.

    Underlying the strains between Mr. Rumsfeld and the Army, which began at the beginning of Mr. Rumsfeld's tenure, are questions that challenge not only the Rumsfeld design for this war but also his broader approach to transforming the military.

    The first is why, in an era when American military dominance comes in both the quality of its technology and of its troops, the defense secretary prefers emphasizing long-range precision weapons to putting boots on the ground.

    At present, there are about 100,000 coalition troops inside Iraq, part of more than 300,000 on land, at sea and in the air throughout the region for the war. Just under 100,000 more troops stand ready for possible deployment.

    Even after the war, some experts argue that it could take several hundred thousand troops to hold and control a country the size of California, with about 24 million people.

    Mr. Rumsfeld has argued that he adopted this approach for flowing forces to the region to prepare for war without upsetting the Bush administration's diplomatic efforts.

    The idea was to raise pressure on Iraq until President Bush made a decision on whether or not to go to war, Mr. Rumsfeld has said.

    Even some of Mr. Rumsfeld's advisers now acknowledge that they misjudged the scope and intensity of resistance from Iraqi paramilitaries in the south, and forced commanders to divert troops already stretched thin to protect supply convoys and root out Hussein loyalists in Basra, Nasiriya and Najaf. But they also point to the air campaign's successes in the past few days in significantly weakening the Republican Guard divisions around Baghdad. As one senior official said of the process that produced the war plan, as well as the pace and sequencing of troops, "It was a painful process to match the political and military goals."

    One Army officer said General Wallace's comments — particularly that "the enemy we're fighting is different from the one we war-gamed against" — were not meant to show defiance but merely express a view widely shared among American officers in Iraq, at headquarters units in neighboring Kuwait and back at the Pentagon. Some members of General Wallace's staff have expressed concerns for the professional future of their boss.

    Mr. Rumsfeld arrived at the Pentagon vowing to transform the military, and senior aides promised to push aside what they described as hidebound volumes of doctrine in order to create an armed force emphasizing combat by long-range, precision strikes and expanding the most maneuverable military assets, mostly ships, jets, drones, satellites and Special Operations troops.

    Many in the Army thought the defense secretary had declared war on them, which struck them as unfair, because the Army had invested as much brainpower as any other service in transforming itself — perhaps because it had to, since the Air Force, Navy and Marines were already more nimble.

    page 2 ->

    Rumsfeld's Design for War Criticized on the Battlefield
    (Page 2 of 2)



    In certain ways, the dissonance between Mr. Rumsfeld and General Shinseki is surprising, because the general was himself the leading advocate of reforming and modernizing the Army. In October 1999, General Shinseki pledged to reshape the service from waging war by slog and slash, calling for new theory and proposing new weapons to create a land force more agile and precise in bringing lethal force to the battlefield.

    "On the substantive issues, Shinseki and Rumsfeld share a large agenda, about making the Army more deployable," said Michael O'Hanlon, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. "Shinseki was one of the first guys out of the block with the concept, and it fit the world view Rumsfeld brought to the Pentagon when he came in later.

    "But their chemistry was just not great," Mr. O'Hanlon said.

    But after he became defense secretary with the new Bush administration in January 2001, Mr. Rumsfeld made the word transformation his own and his vision of a more flexible and agile military often seemed to come at the expense of General Shinseki's Army.

    For example, in an effort to find money for an arsenal of new, high-technology weapons, some of Mr. Rumsfeld's senior advisers proposed cutting 2 of the Army's 10 active divisions; it is still not known how seriously Mr. Rumsfeld considered the case, but the divisions survived.

    Today, the war plan for Iraq was viewed by many in the service as diminishing the Army role, because it placed a premium on speed and shock and called for fewer ground forces to be in place when the war began, planning to call in more only in case of battlefield surprises and setbacks. But that takes time.

    The Pentagon spokeswoman, Victoria Clarke, said today that Mr. Rumsfeld did not craft the war plan for Iraq with any intent to reward or punish an individual armed service, and instead sees "a mix of services and capabilities they offer." The war plan, she said, received "a careful review and approval by all the chiefs."

    "As we have made very clear, the secretary does share the vision of a 21st-century Army that faces the unconventional threats of today with new and transforming capabilities," Ms. Clarke said. "The secretary has worked hard with the Army to make those sorts of critical changes as quickly as possible."

    But what pushed General Shinseki afoul of the civilian leadership before this war began were his comments on the levels of force that might be needed to stabilize Iraq after the battles were over.

    Pressed by Senator Carl Levin, the Michigan Democrat who is the ranking minority member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, General Shinseki, who commanded the NATO peacekeeping force in Bosnia, said several hundred thousand troops could be needed.

    "Wildly off the mark," was how Paul D. Wolfowitz, the deputy defense secretary, dismissed the Army chief's comments. Mr. Rumsfeld was a bit more circumspect in his criticism, saying that the general had a right to his opinion, but that this one would be proven wrong. Their public comments were unusual and were widely interpreted in Washington as a rebuke to General Shinseki, who is scheduled to retire in mid-June.

    William L. Nash, a retired Army major general and veteran of the first gulf war and the Bosnia mission, said of General Shinseki, "He is as fine a soldier as I've ever served with, and his key characteristics are loyalty, and professional competence."

    General Nash, currently a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, added, "It is extremely unfortunate that he has not had more influence on the war planning and the allocation of forces."
     
  15. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,072
    Likes Received:
    3,601
    OFFENSE AND DEFENSE
    by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
    The battle between Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon.
    Issue of 2003-04-07
    Posted 2003-03-31
    As the ground campaign against Saddam Hussein faltered last week, with attenuated supply lines and a lack of immediate reinforcements, there was anger in the Pentagon. Several senior war planners complained to me in interviews that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his inner circle of civilian advisers, who had been chiefly responsible for persuading President Bush to lead the country into war, had insisted on micromanaging the war’s operational details. Rumsfeld’s team took over crucial aspects of the day-to-day logistical planning—traditionally, an area in which the uniformed military excels—and Rumsfeld repeatedly overruled the senior Pentagon planners on the Joint Staff, the operating arm of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. “He thought he knew better,” one senior planner said. “He was the decision-maker at every turn.”

    On at least six occasions, the planner told me, when Rumsfeld and his deputies were presented with operational plans—the Iraqi assault was designated Plan 1003—he insisted that the number of ground troops be sharply reduced. Rumsfeld’s faith in precision bombing and his insistence on streamlined military operations has had profound consequences for the ability of the armed forces to fight effectively overseas. “They’ve got no resources,” a former high-level intelligence official said. “He was so focussed on proving his point—that the Iraqis were going to fall apart.”

    The critical moment, one planner said, came last fall, during the buildup for the war, when Rumsfeld decided that he would no longer be guided by the Pentagon’s most sophisticated war-planning document, the TPFDL—time-phased forces-deployment list—which is known to planning officers as the tip-fiddle (tip-fid, for short). A TPFDL is a voluminous document describing the inventory of forces that are to be sent into battle, the sequence of their deployment, and the deployment of logistical support. “It’s the complete applecart, with many pieces,” Roger J. Spiller, the George C. Marshall Professor of military history at the U.S. Command and General Staff College, said. “Everybody trains and plans on it. It’s constantly in motion and always adjusted at the last minute. It’s an embedded piece of the bureaucratic and operational culture.” A retired Air Force strategic planner remarked, “This is what we do best—go from A to B—and the tip-fiddle is where you start. It’s how you put together a plan for moving into the theatre.” Another former planner said, “Once you turn on the tip-fid, everything moves in an orderly fashion.” A former intelligence officer added, “When you kill the tip-fiddle, you kill centralized military planning. The military is not like a corporation that can be streamlined. It is the most inefficient machine known to man. It’s the redundancy that saves lives.”

    The TPFDL for the war in Iraq ran to forty or more computer-generated spreadsheets, dealing with everything from weapons to toilet paper. When it was initially presented to Rumsfeld last year for his approval, it called for the involvement of a wide range of forces from the different armed services, including four or more Army divisions. Rumsfeld rejected the package, because it was “too big,” the Pentagon planner said. He insisted that a smaller, faster-moving attack force, combined with overwhelming air power, would suffice. Rumsfeld further stunned the Joint Staff by insisting that he would control the timing and flow of Army and Marine troops to the combat zone. Such decisions are known in the military as R.F.F.s—requests for forces. He, and not the generals, would decide which unit would go when and where.

    The TPFDL called for the shipment in advance, by sea, of hundreds of tanks and other heavy vehicles—enough for three or four divisions. Rumsfeld ignored this advice. Instead, he relied on the heavy equipment that was already in Kuwait—enough for just one full combat division. The 3rd Infantry Division, from Fort Stewart, Georgia, the only mechanized Army division that was active inside Iraq last week, thus arrived in the Gulf without its own equipment. “Those guys are driving around in tanks that were pre-positioned. Their tanks are sitting in Fort Stewart,” the planner said. “To get more forces there we have to float them. We can’t fly our forces in, because there’s nothing for them to drive. Over the past six months, you could have floated everything in ninety days—enough for four or more divisions.” The planner added, “This is the mess Rumsfeld put himself in, because he didn’t want a heavy footprint on the ground.”

    Plan 1003 was repeatedly updated and presented to Rumsfeld, and each time, according to the planner, Rumsfeld said, “‘You’ve got too much ground force—go back and do it again.’” In the planner’s view, Rumsfeld had two goals: to demonstrate the efficacy of precision bombing and to “do the war on the cheap.” Rumsfeld and his two main deputies for war planning, Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, “were so enamored of ‘shock and awe’ that victory seemed assured,” the planner said. “They believed that the weather would always be clear, that the enemy would expose itself, and so precision bombings would always work.” (Rumsfeld did not respond to a request for comment.)



    Rumsfeld’s personal contempt for many of the senior generals and admirals who were promoted to top jobs during the Clinton Administration is widely known. He was especially critical of the Army, with its insistence on maintaining costly mechanized divisions. In his off-the-cuff memoranda, or “snowflakes,” as they’re called in the Pentagon, he chafed about generals having “the slows”—a reference to Lincoln’s characterization of General George McClellan. “In those conditions—an atmosphere of derision and challenge—the senior officers do not offer their best advice,” a high-ranking general who served for more than a year under Rumsfeld said. One witness to a meeting recalled Rumsfeld confronting General Eric Shinseki, the Army Chief of Staff, in front of many junior officers. “He was looking at the Chief and waving his hand,” the witness said, “saying, ‘Are you getting this yet? Are you getting this yet?’”

    Gradually, Rumsfeld succeeded in replacing those officers in senior Joint Staff positions who challenged his view. “All the Joint Staff people now are handpicked, and churn out products to make the Secretary of Defense happy,” the planner said. “They don’t make military judgments—they just respond to his snowflakes.”

    In the months leading up to the war, a split developed inside the military, with the planners and their immediate superiors warning that the war plan was dangerously thin on troops and matériel, and the top generals—including General Tommy Franks, the head of the U.S. Central Command, and Air Force General Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff—supporting Rumsfeld. After Turkey’s parliament astonished the war planners in early March by denying the United States permission to land the 4th Infantry Division in Turkey, Franks initially argued that the war ought to be delayed until the troops could be brought in by another route, a former intelligence official said. “Rummy overruled him.”

    Many of the present and former officials I spoke to were critical of Franks for his perceived failure to stand up to his civilian superiors. A former senator told me that Franks was widely seen as a commander who “will do what he’s told.” A former intelligence official asked, “Why didn’t he go to the President?” A Pentagon official recalled that one senior general used to prepare his deputies for meetings with Rumsfeld by saying, “When you go in to talk to him, you’ve got to be prepared to lay your stars on the table and walk out. Otherwise, he’ll walk over you.”

    In early February, according to a senior Pentagon official, Rumsfeld appeared at the Army Commanders’ Conference, a biannual business and social gathering of all the four-star generals. Rumsfeld was invited to join the generals for dinner and make a speech. All went well, the official told me, until Rumsfeld, during a question-and-answer session, was asked about his personal involvement in the deployment of combat units, in some cases with only five or six days’ notice. To the astonishment and anger of the generals, Rumsfeld denied responsibility. “He said, ‘I wasn’t involved,’” the official said. “‘It was the Joint Staff.’”

    “We thought it would be fence-mending, but it was a disaster,” the official said of the dinner. “Everybody knew he was looking at these deployment orders. And for him to blame it on the Joint Staff—” The official hesitated a moment, and then said, “It’s all about Rummy and the truth.”



    According to a dozen or so military men I spoke to, Rumsfeld simply failed to anticipate the consequences of protracted warfare. He put Army and Marine units in the field with few reserves and an insufficient number of tanks and other armored vehicles. (The military men say that the vehicles that they do have have been pushed too far and are malfunctioning.) Supply lines—inevitably, they say—have become overextended and vulnerable to attack, creating shortages of fuel, water, and ammunition. Pentagon officers spoke contemptuously of the Administration’s optimistic press briefings. “It’s a stalemate now,” the former intelligence official told me. “It’s going to remain one only if we can maintain our supply lines. The carriers are going to run out of jdams”—the satellite-guided bombs that have been striking targets in Baghdad and elsewhere with extraordinary accuracy. Much of the supply of Tomahawk guided missiles has been expended. “The Marines are worried as hell,” the former intelligence official went on. “They’re all committed, with no reserves, and they’ve never run the lavs”—light armored vehicles—“as long and as hard” as they have in Iraq. There are serious maintenance problems as well. “The only hope is that they can hold out until reinforcements come.”

    The 4th Infantry Division—the Army’s most modern mechanized division—whose equipment spent weeks waiting in the Mediterranean before being diverted to the overtaxed American port in Kuwait, is not expected to be operational until the end of April. The 1st Cavalry Division, in Texas, is ready to ship out, the planner said, but by sea it will take twenty-three days to reach Kuwait. “All we have now is front-line positions,” the former intelligence official told me. “Everything else is missing.”

    Last week, plans for an assault on Baghdad had stalled, and the six Republican Guard divisions expected to provide the main Iraqi defense had yet to have a significant engagement with American or British soldiers. The shortages forced Central Command to “run around looking for supplies,” the former intelligence official said. The immediate goal, he added, was for the Army and Marine forces “to hold tight and hope that the Republican Guard divisions get chewed up” by bombing. The planner agreed, saying, “The only way out now is back, and to hope for some kind of a miracle—that the Republican Guards commit themselves,” and thus become vulnerable to American air strikes.

    “Hope,” a retired four-star general subsequently told me, “is not a course of action.” Last Thursday, the Army’s senior ground commander, Lieutenant General William S. Wallace, said to reporters, “The enemy we’re fighting is different from the one we war-gamed against.” (One senior Administration official commented to me, speaking of the Iraqis, “They’re not scared. Ain’t it something? They’re not scared.”) At a press conference the next day, Rumsfeld and Myers were asked about Wallace’s comments, and defended the war plan—Myers called it “brilliant” and “on track.” They pointed out that the war was only a little more than a week old.

    Scott Ritter, the former marine and United Nations weapons inspector, who has warned for months that the American “shock and awe” strategy would not work, noted that much of the bombing has had little effect or has been counterproductive. For example, the bombing of Saddam’s palaces has freed up a brigade of special guards who had been assigned to protect them, and who have now been sent home to await further deployment. “Every one of their homes—and they are scattered throughout Baghdad—is stacked with ammunition and supplies,” Ritter told me.

    “This is tragic,” one senior planner said bitterly. “American lives are being lost.” The former intelligence official told me, “They all said, ‘We can do it with air power.’ They believed their own propaganda.” The high-ranking former general described Rumsfeld’s approach to the Joint Staff war planning as “McNamara-like intimidation by intervention of a small cell”—a reference to Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara and his aides, who were known for their challenges to the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the Vietnam War. The former high-ranking general compared the Joint Chiefs of Staff to the Stepford wives. “They’ve abrogated their responsibility.”



    Perhaps the biggest disappointment of last week was the failure of the Shiite factions in southern Iraq to support the American and British invasion. Various branches of the Al Dawa faction, which operate underground, have been carrying out acts of terrorism against the Iraqi regime since the nineteen-eighties. But Al Dawa has also been hostile to American interests. Some in American intelligence have implicated the group in the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, which cost the lives of two hundred and forty-one marines. Nevertheless, in the months before the war the Bush Administration courted Al Dawa by including it among the opposition groups that would control postwar Iraq. “Dawa is one group that could kill Saddam,” a former American intelligence official told me. “They hate Saddam because he suppressed the Shiites. They exist to kill Saddam.” He said that their apparent decision to stand with the Iraqi regime now was a “disaster” for us. “They’re like hard-core Vietcong.”

    There were reports last week that Iraqi exiles, including fervent Shiites, were crossing into Iraq by car and bus from Jordan and Syria to get into the fight on the side of the Iraqi government. Robert Baer, a former C.I.A. Middle East operative, told me in a telephone call from Jordan, “Everybody wants to fight. The whole nation of Iraq is fighting to defend Iraq. Not Saddam. They’ve been given the high sign, and we are courting disaster. If we take fifty or sixty casualties a day and they die by the thousands, they’re still winning. It’s a jihad, and it’s a good thing to die. This is no longer a secular war.” There were press reports of mujahideen arriving from Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Algeria for “martyrdom operations.”

    There had been an expectation before the war that Iran, Iraq’s old enemy, would side with the United States in this fight. One Iraqi opposition group, the Iraqi National Congress, led by Ahmed Chalabi, has been in regular contact with the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, or sciri, an umbrella organization for Shiite groups who oppose Saddam. The organization is based in Iran and has close ties to Iranian intelligence. The Chalabi group set up an office last year in Tehran, with the approval of Chalabi’s supporters in the Pentagon, who include Rumsfeld, his deputies Wolfowitz and Feith, and Richard Perle, the former chairman of the Defense Policy Board. Chalabi has repeatedly predicted that the Tehran government would provide support, including men and arms, if an American invasion of Iraq took place.

    Last week, however, this seemed unlikely. In a press conference on Friday, Rumsfeld warned Iranian militants against interfering with American forces and accused Syria of sending military equipment to the Iraqis. A Middle East businessman who has long-standing ties in Jordan and Syria—and whose information I have always found reliable—told me that the religious government in Tehran “is now backing Iraq in the war. There isn’t any Arab fighting group on the ground in Iraq who is with the United States,” he said.

    There is also evidence that Turkey has been playing both sides. Turkey and Syria, who traditionally have not had close relations, recently agreed to strengthen their ties, the businessman told me, and early this year Syria sent Major General Ghazi Kanaan, its longtime strongman and power broker in Lebanon, to Turkey. The two nations have begun to share intelligence and to meet, along with Iranian officials, to discuss border issues, in case an independent Kurdistan emerges from the Iraq war. A former U.S. intelligence officer put it this way: “The Syrians are coördinating with the Turks to screw us in the north—to cause us problems.” He added, “Syria and the Iranians agreed that they could not let an American occupation of Iraq stand.”

    rumsfeld vs military
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now