1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

NBA Stat Inflation

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by durvasa, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,531
    Likes Received:
    59,059
    You posted this while I was writing last. Again, you make it sound like only offense got easier.

    When you say the rules elevated certain types of players, freedom of movement of defense elevated the power of defenses to Win to the point you could sacrifice offense and make a bigger impact by developing and playing the 3&D guys, rather than those guys having to watch the play due to Illegal Defense rules.

    So, rules changes (to include the necessary 3pt Line) elevated 3&D players — which made it harder for the stars.

    imo, it was a chicken or egg thing to claim whether easing of offense rules led to need for more defenders or whether changes in defenses (recruiting and rules) led to need to ease offense rules.
     
    #21 heypartner, Mar 27, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  2. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,922
    Likes Received:
    16,475
    Rules changes, in general, have been designed to make offenses more exciting to watch (not so much easier). Often that resulted in increased offensive efficiency. Sometimes, like in getting rid of the old illegal defense rule (or the "Charles Barkley" rule -- I forget the official name), the goal was not actually to make it easier to play defense but rather to encourage aesthetic improvements in offense (better ball movement, steer away from ISO post up offenses).

    https://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/12/...ense-rule-will-most-likely-be-eliminated.html

    It would be interesting to try to determine which rule changes had the most noticeable effect on offensive efficiency and pace:

    [​IMG]
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,531
    Likes Received:
    59,059
    Wait, now we are talking about Intent? I'm not seeing the importance of intent here.

    The effect of both the 3pt Line and the Freedom of Movement of Defense made defenses significantly easier, much more tactical, and a lot better by allowing 3&D players to develop, get playing time, get paid and flourish.

    Defense Evolution -- due to rules changes -- is a fascinating and important part of NBA history that no one seems interested in...certainly not the OP video, which makes it weak as a documentary on scoring.

    You're way to quantitative for my taste, sometime. You and @Easy like those thought experiments more than I. I'm more interested in looking at the actual trends in Player Skill, Offensive tactics, X and Os, Defenses, etc, that played out. Like how NFL fans appreciate the history of defense, too.

    Like football, NBA Fans need more history education on evolution of defenses from 60s to now -- starting with the rules. There's a big void there.​

    To play along, I think it's bad math to pull the rules changes apart like that...too many variables, discoveries, time delay in viral propagation, etc
    • Example 1: We could also say, better knowledge from technology (the SportsVU cameras) has made offenses smarter, as well as defenses ... but probably offenses benefitted more.

    • Example 2: The 3&D player was slow to develop (viral propagation), because of contracts already in place, and because you want to start developing them earlier and earlier -- pre NBA. Advancement of Analytics had slow adoption rate. Learning the importance of the Corner 3, where the 3&D player lives, was organic.

      You couldn't just change a rule and snap your finger and go small or start recruiting differently or field more length and multipositional athletes ... you had to discover, draft, develop, seek and sign what works.

    • Example 3: Some rules do have instant widespread effect, like Illegal D did somewhat and more fouls on defense this year do. But shift in defensive coaching influence, practice, learning what works, development and recruting to fully leverage the rules, wouldn't...and 3pt Line is probably best example. Takes a long time for basketball throughout all ranks to start cranking out Stretch 4/5s.
    And keep in mind that advanced analytics wasn't used until recently, so while we can go back in time and see when ORtg was lowest, the coaches were going with gut feel (pound it down low v shoot 3s), while the 90s were also a Golden Era of tremendous defensive Centers who could score, as well. Some of that skill set has nothing to do with rules changes.

    You'd expect a balancing act. I have very limited interest in using a timeline chart of rules matched to ORtg and Pace to make any useful hypothesis or resulting claim. It's no more a fun thought experiment as trying to pinpoint what changes in social/cultural "rules/norms" led to higher Offensive Ratings and Defensive/Offended Ratings. :)
     
    daywalker02 likes this.
  4. durvasa

    durvasa Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    38,922
    Likes Received:
    16,475
    The intended result matches what happened, as you yourself pointed: "and the ppl who pushed for the change by saying it would make offenses adjust with more exciting play were correct."

    The league wanted to drive up scoring, and even rule changes like getting rid of illegal defenses were enacted to serve that general agenda. I agree that gives more flexibility for NBA defenses to do interesting things. But it also had a downstream effect, IMO, of increasing scoring.

    Good stuff here. I'll think about it some more, and if I have something I think is worth responding with I'll post it later.
     
  5. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    100,318
    Likes Received:
    49,693
    The introduction of the 3 ball, abeit pretty late in 79/80, and the massive amount of 3pt attempts nowadays countered some of the fast pacing and huge amount of possessions in the 50s and 60s.

    Decent adjusted numbers.

    First heard about the Iso and Deadball eras as I never read a bball book before but those 90s were hard to watch in terms of Offense.
     
  6. Houstunna

    Houstunna Mr Graphix
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    38,724
    Likes Received:
    34,079
    Nice post. But regarding baseball...

    I don't think many fans believe players are better now. In fact, pitching namely, most fans probably say current players are more weak.

    Pitching is much more specialized now, which affects hitting stats.
     
  7. rockets13champs

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2012
    Messages:
    9,034
    Likes Received:
    8,497
    Pretty much this just tells me 60s nba was really different. And as time went on the game refined to be more efficient. And if u adjust for stat inflation James Harden is having one of the greatest seasons of all time up there with MJ and Kobe. #Goat
     
    vlaurelio likes this.
  8. heypartner

    heypartner Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    63,531
    Likes Received:
    59,059
    But see, you just talked about defense (pitching) has improved with advanced analytics, tactical adjustments and increased need for specialized defensive players (middle relievers and closers). All that balancing out the improvement of hitters.

    Fans like you have a better understanding of baseball with regards to the history of defense and offense. That knowledge and discussion is lacking in basketball, imso.
     
    Houstunna likes this.
  9. Houstunna

    Houstunna Mr Graphix
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    38,724
    Likes Received:
    34,079
    Good correlation with pitching equaling defense. Heck, the actual defense might be improved due to "shifts". Astros' GM is similar to Morey with their forward thinking.

    NBA players have an easier time adjusting to game-changes because throwing multiple pitchers within a game is simply unfair compared to yester-years. Handchecking has helped offense too. And the general lack of inside presence helps shots at the rim.
     

Share This Page