NBA Refs don't understand the rules!!!

Not exactly, but close enough. My interpretation is that the help defender has not right to impede the dribbler by attempting to draw a charge. The official can choose not to make a foul call on the defender. But he absolutely can if his judgement of the contact warrants a personal foul.

BTW ...this is called the same way in the NCAA in the few games I watch.

It makes sense to me since I feel the rule "implies" (even though not directly said) that there is no such thing as a legal defensive position on a help defender inside the arc.

BTW ..I've ordered a copy of the Official NBA Rule Book from Amazon, which is 80 pages. My guess is it will be more detailed than whats on the NBA website.

Also, I've been browsing officialforum.com and there is a college official (Chuck Elias) on there that has talked quite a bit about this rule and the confusion about whether or a block can be called in that situation (he says it can).

 

I'm watching game Rockets vs Spurs on cctv5 . IN the halftime, they do show some yao's fouls and they point out that most of them are right calls. They said in restrict zone you can not just stand there to D ---you must jump up to D ----otherwise you will get block foul.

 

since yao can't shrink to some 6'10'' guy so basically you're saying in order for yao to play he has to loose weight and strength?

 

Your point may have some merit....except for the fact that the thread starter has been a member of this board more than 6 years longer than you have.

 

oops...double post, deleted

 

Sorry its taken me awhile to get back to your posts but you raise some good issues that I wanted to answer.

I didn't say that there was a conspiracy in favor of Yao just that it is hard to see a reason for a conspiracy against Yao. The NBA is a business and like every other business is looking to maximize revenue and expand markets. It makes no economic sense for the NBA to do something that doesn't do that. Yao is a hugely marketable star and the key to the world's largest market. The more Yao plays in high profile games the more money the NBA makes so it would be in the league's interest to have Yao not fouling out and the Rox winning. Therefore that Yao isn't getting a lot of calls his way might be more of an indicator that the league isn't out to get Yao since its not in their economic interest to have Yao in foul trouble.

Joe Executive certainly gets a big economic benefit from the Yao making money for the league and so does Joe Referee. Every NBA employee wants the NBA to make more money because that means that they either get more benefits or can negotiate for higher salaries. If I recall the officials are unionized and if the league is raking in record profits the officials will definately press for more money and are likely to get it.

My point is though is that even given that Yao creates a tangible economic benefit he's not getting calls so it seems unlikely there's a conspiracy in favor and unlikely against since that makes no economic sense.

I think Yao not getting calls is having a very minor negative affect already. We've seen here on Clutchfans many Chinese and non-Chinese Yao fans beyatchin about Yao not getting calls. If that feeling gets much more widespread that will spell trouble for the NBA. The very worst thing that can happen for the NBA is a widely held view in China that there is a conspiracy against Yao, especially if the view is that it is because of anti-Chinese bias. The Chinese are very touchy about such things and it would reflect very much on NBA marketing in China.

That goes to the bottom line argument because I doubt that Stern or the rest of the NBA is so stupid as to allow a conspiracy against Yao.

As for so many fans imagining such a thing well we are Rockets fans and as such we are much more sensitive in regard to treatment of our players by the refs. In Minnesota where I live I often here complaints that the refs are treating KG fairly and at the last T-Wolves game there were far more complaints that more fouls weren't called on Yao when he was guarding KG. As fans by nature we are biased.

This is a good question and I will go back to the baseball example. A pitcher like Greg Maddux in general gets a larger strike zone than a pitcher like Ezequial Astacio. If you watch a game between the two you are very likely going to see a pitch called a strike for Maddux called a ball for Astacio because the umpires give someone like Maddux who has a long consitent history of showing great control the benefit of the doubt on close plays whereas a pitcher like Astacio with no history doesn't get that. According to the rule books the strike zone should be consistent no matter who pitches but that's not the case and its well known in baseball that isn't the case at all. In fact pitchers are taught to try to stretch the strikezone by doing things like pitching consistently to one of the corners of the zone early in the game so later they can get away with a pitch out of zone in the corner.

In basketball consistently aggressive players seem to be able to get more lenient treatment in post plays. For instance Karl Malone, Shaq and Barkley often would commit blatant O and D fouls down in the post yet would get away with it. Stars in general in the NBA get away with much more for instance a lot of people in the NBA talked about the 'Jordan Rules' if Jordan had been refereed by the book many of his most exciting moves should've been negated for travelling or carrying. This isn't allowing someone to get away with murder or rape but that the refs are human who develop their own biases. Its like the case of a town sheriff who knows that the local highschool football star likes to speed a lot will give him a pass when he comes zipping by at 30 MPH over the speed limit or the case where the sherriff knows someone has in general been very law abiding will give them a pass when they commit a minor infracture.

That Yao isn't getting that sort of treatment IMO has much more to do with that Yao hasn't shown he can play consistently aggressive in the post and so Refs aren't willing to give him the same breaks. I firmly believe that if Yao keeps on playing aggressive the refs will start to give him the breaks taht Shaq gets.

 

You mean if I am standing inside the arc and someone is dribbling to the basket, I have to get out of the way to let him score? If that is indeed the meaning of the rule, that's just an unreasonable rule to me. It goes against all basic basketball sense.

 

Not what I said at all Easy. 1) The rule applies to help defenders only, not man to man. 2) I said the help defender has no rights as far as drawing an offense foul and that if he attempts to, then he is responsible for contact fouls.

That doesn't mean a help defender can't try and block the shot or play defender. He just can't stand there and be absolved of any contact while trying to draw a charge. He has every right to defend the shot (by attempting to block it) as long as he doesn't make contact that would be considered a personal foul.

BTW ..if you watch Yao, he has followed this guideline several times this year and gotten the block on the help without making contact.

 

I still don't get it. When the offensive player is charging toward you, how can you avoid contact other than getting out of the way? If you are a big man, it is very likely that you are located inside the arc even if you do not attempt to draw a charge. So you have to step aside, let the offensive player go to the rim, and try to block the shot from the side.

I don't like the RZ rule anyway. I think it forces the players to use a totally different defensive mentality in a very small area of the court. You basically have to look where exactly you are under the basket and then decide which kind of defensive posture you use. Putting such a distraction on the defense in the most crucial area of the court is just terrible.

 

You completely missed my point. Just because there's more revenues for a giant company as a whole, doesn't mean it'll get filtered down to every employee equally or even significantly. The entry-level Google programmer do not earn any more salary just because their company is earning a huge profit, unless they have stock options, even years after the boom. They don't double your salary immediately just because Google's profits doubled.

An NBA referee gets paid from $90,000 to $225,000 per year based on number of games worked and seniority. This is much higher than the national average, even for an entire household. In another words, NBA referees make a very good living. Their salary did not receive any big bumps in each of the year that Yao Ming has been in the league. They do not get a % cut of the total profits. To them, their salary has simply been adjusted for inflation without any correlation to anything relating to Yao Ming. Even if Yao was to disappear completely from the NBA starting immediately, you will not see NBA referees begging for money on the streets. The league will go on thriving and the referees will continue to do well.

Also, do you remember this?

USA Today.com - NBA referees want Van Gundy fired
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/rockets/2005-05-09-van-gundy-clarifies_x.htm

I would not be surprised if the referees continue to hold a grudge against Van Gundy and the Rockets, even though they will never admit to such a thing. I never even suggested a conspiracy either way as you did, but that doesn't mean that there's no bias in the referee's decisions. And your economics theory can use some work in its sophistication. You're ignoring all the principles in how a large corporation is run and the mentality of the employees in such a corporate structure.

As I mentioned before, nobody has shown any proof of the short-term and long-term financial impact of such a controversy. You are once again just repeating your assertions without anything to back it up. Has any less revenues come out of China into the NBA since this issue came up? I don't know the answer.

You cannot ignore the possibility that people may actually pay more attention when their national hero is preceived to be treated unfairly in a foreign country. More attention may actually translate into more money for the NBA through the increased attention in the press. I am not saying this is the case. I'm just offering a counter argument that you would have to disprove in order to prove your end if you have evidence.

It's no use rehashing your assumptions without any concrete proof.

Nice explanation. I'm aware of the perception that referees and umpires can be manipulated and influenced into favorable calls by athletes and coaches. I'm just saying that this really should not be how the system should work, in an ideal world. But since nothing in this world is ideal, we'll have to accept it the way it is. Hopefully, Yao can learn how to manipulate the system as well as the other superstars.

 

While maybe the money doesn't get filtered down evenly its very unlikely that management would allow a conspiracy or blatant bias by underlings to persist that hurts the company's bottom line.

But no one has offered concrete proof that there is a conspiracy or deep seated bias against Yao which is what all of this is about. That the Refs are biased against Yao. That's why I'm pointing out that such a conspiracy makes no economic sense. All we're seeing is anecdotal statements on a fan board that is by nature biased towards Yao and the Rox complaining that the refs are biased against Yao.

Yes negative publicity leads to more viewership but the nature of this controversy would result in Yao playing less games since if the Refs are biased against him and the Rox then the Rox wouldn't be able to advance in the playoffs. If Yao's not playing it doesn't matter how much controversary there is because Yao fans won't be watching games that Yao isn't playing in.

On that I totally agree with you. Yes the system shouldn't work that way but that's how it is which is why I think rather than beyatchin about the refs being biased against Yao we should be wondering what can Yao and the Rox do better.

Officiating in the NBA has never been fair and stars get breaks. Its a sad fact but a fact. I think if Yao plays consitently aggressive he will get calls his way. Yes he might get a lot of calls going against him at first but I think things will turn around as refs get used to seeing him play aggressive.